when good wines gone bad

joeswine · Jun 15, 2011

rocky I lost my last post but if you have a kit wine and made it to tha process than what you have in hand is a balanced wine,doesn't matter what it lacks what matters is you understand the balance and the structure of the wine,from that piont you can reconstrust the wine and make a much better product than you finishes with,remember i made a state ment (when good wines gone bad) thats the key thinking outside the box,when I want to make a wine,i first buy the kit make it and deicect it,the next time i do it with fresh juice,or a cheap kit and enhance the kit or process it to fit my cryteria,if youknow the body andthe structure of wine and want to be creative theirs no limits ,as a cellard dwellar i need to be creative,make my own,wines and to a good standard ,think about the make up of wine the next time you by a 69.95 kit make it and then change its flavor and body as much as it will allow you to,pm me and we will make a kit =together of your choosing.......or lets reconstructe a kit in process and you can see for yourself.................jp

Rocky · Jun 16, 2011

Thank you, Joe. I will take you up on that offer. Right now, I have two big kits to make, but they are the RJS Winery Series and I like them fine the way they are. I will try a 10 liter kit in the future and we can collaborate on it.

joeswine · Jun 16, 2011

sounds like A PLAN,,,,you wont be disapointed...as far as good wines gone bad,we all know the usages of extracts and how to prepare them ,fpac,oaking the difference in maturation with fruit and wine ,vest and wine ,cold fermentation,raisins and other off the wall additives,just take a look at any kit low end or high end,look at whats supplied with each and the balance of concentrates verses juice,take that and plot a course of action,the difference between a straight kit maker and a fresh juice maker is wide ,IMOP,APPLEMAN AND THOSE WHO GROW there own raw product have many more bumps in the road to traverse,than kit people,but the net result can be the same,,,WHEN GOOD WINES GONE BAD ,came into play we discovered how diverse wine making can be,we also discuss how to correct some of the problems that came down the road and how we solved them to the best of our ability,..the first item was----( what were we trying to make)...should I continue????

Rocky · Jun 16, 2011

By all means Joe, continue.

joeswine · Jun 16, 2011

take for example,you want to make a cab,no big deal right,so you first see what the kit manufacture set out for you to use as yeast, ,do a little research,go on line and find out what yeast really goes best with that wine,research even further and see what charastics the wine should have,armed with this info,your ready to create a decent to good wine out of a shallow box wine kit,but you must first do the research,and want to see this thought,I say this only once and you will not hear it again,......start to make the kit or fresh juice for that matter,,,the difference is when to add the body ,how to create layers of flavor.....notice the term LAYERS>>>>>>are you with me.....think of a good gravy and that's your wine,read it like you would a good sauce,not just fermenting stuff......................step one,,have the type wine in mind..no the yeast that brings out the best in that style (don't rely on word of mouth) its not that accurate...everyone's taste is different...buy yourself a good bottle of that style and drink it as you do make notes of the texture,nose,and body,remembering body comes in three types....once you've done that you are ready to really begin to THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX....shall I cont.?

Rocky · Jun 16, 2011

Joe, you are saying that the yeast packet that comes with a kit is not necessarily the best match for that wine, right? I am aware that some yeasts are for lower potential alcohols and some are for higher potential alcohols. What other criteria is there in matching the yeast with the wine?

Rocky · Jun 16, 2011

Joe, I understand the three classes of "body" but I am not sure how body and texture differ. Can you explain?

joeswine · Jun 17, 2011

yeast , depending on the type and style of wine being made,brings out the taste potential of the host wine,as well as other features a grape may posess...there is a tech. name but it escapes me right now...so what they give you may be OK,it might not be the best..check out the LAVIN yest chart on line as well as others.............you'll see..also the age and storage of the yeast they give you may not be as fresh as it should be,thats why you need to build up a work kit of parts ,or a small list of additives,and components to have on hand for doing just what I do......adjusting ..............

joeswine · Jun 17, 2011

(remember the sauce) so if i refer to the sauce you'll understand me ok..IMOP..texture and body could be described as one but i like to brake THEM DOWN A LITTLE FUTHER..first body....the way the wine wine coats the tongue and mouth....texture the different flavors you taste as you drink or swirl,this can change but not the body....you'll see down the line...give you an example....

you have a white wine you just made nothing to wright home about.......what to do...thoughs ...where to start...what about taste..look in your repair kit...is there white grape concentrate,no,go out and by 3lbs. or so of Thompson seedless grapes for hand crushing,no,take the zest of 2 grapes fruits or oranges,or if citrus is to your Mediterranean taste the zest of 2 lime/lemons and 2grape fruit,add it to the sauce and let stand for 3/4 weeks at least,check it will be delight full..then taste...will continue later..ok..

Rocky · Jun 17, 2011

Very interesting, Joe. I have checked out and saved some yeast charts and if I am reading them correctly, the Lalvin EC-1118 that comes with just about every kit may not be the best choice.

Also, on your idea of a "repair kit" I have already tried something like that with a Riesling that I made. I served in Germany back in the 1960's and remember the wine having a "green apple" taste in the background. I got some Granny Smith apples, juiced them in my juicer and added the juice to the wine after adding Potassium Sorbate. Tastes really great.

joeswine · Jun 17, 2011

some of these fixes were invented by the Greeks and romans,to be a good wine maker at our level one needs to think outside the box when a problem arises.

by using the fresh grapes (as above) and allowing them to set in the wine a while you've started a body texture process..buy using currents after secondary you start to create body and even more texture....adding the zest to any white wine you can bring a brightness to the wine without over acidify the wine..these steps when taken in the right order will correct a good white wine gone bad.....and create a good sauce i n the end...knowing when to do this for my part has become a ongoing experiment....

joeswine · Jun 17, 2011

any questions,so far?

Rocky · Jun 17, 2011

No questions, really Joe.

From what you say, the "repair kit" could really be a list of items that one could use to adjust the wine. You would not have to have the items on hand necessarily. As long as you knew that adding currants would do this and adding raisins would do that, you could purchase the items as needed rather than inventory them.

Let me ask this question. I have noticed in the past when I have a really great Cabernet Sauvignon, I get a taste of green peppers. If I wanted to add this to a wine, how would I proceed?

Thanks, Joe. I am really enjoying your posts.

joeswine · Jun 17, 2011

what your tasting is something of a transition on your taste buds,the phloems that are created by using different yeast givethe wine its destine flavors,how ever these are not recreated through adjustments,this is the nature of the juice and the areas they were grown in,nature does play a role,in the creation also.....taste berried deep in the grape can be release through the proper construction and preparation of wine

Rocky · Jun 17, 2011

Joe, I do not understand how the phloems are involved in winemaking. My recollection from botany (and this was a long time ago) is that the phloem tubes transmit food and nutrients within the plantandare found in the stems and not in the fruit. Can you clarify?

joeswine · Jun 17, 2011

I may have gotten the verbiage wrong ,its has to do with the taste structure of the raw product and the taste that is imported from it to you in molecule form,,,,,,,ex.sweet tart sharp,bitter..it will come to me..

extracts are another tool for your kit very handy and long lasting ,have you ever made lemon cello ? this is part extract..have you ever made a holiday wine? this is also made up impart of spices and herbs in extract form..I told you it could get length should i stop?

Rocky · Jun 17, 2011

I am thoroughly enjoying this, Joe. Only stop if you are getting tired of doing it.

No, I have not made lemoncello, but I have drunk enough of it. No Holiday wines either other than mulled wine that we mix atChristmas.

From what you say, did you mean either "pyrazines" or "phenolic compounds" when you said "phloems?"

joeswine · Jun 18, 2011

phenolic compounds I think,,go back to you repair kit "

you should have extract,making and extract isn't hard ,what you are attempting to do is remove the oils from certain types of items for a better word.

EX.oranges,almonds,cinnamon,most citrus and herbs,the way i do this is to start with lets say lemons,.take the zest of 8 large lemons place it in a quart ball jar and fill the remaining volume of the jar with either everclear, or vodka,I prefer everclear more kick to the once and it goes a lot farther than vadavaka is littler in color and to some smoother,however let the two items set with each other for at least a month to two months and now you have a basis for limoncello,that along with simple syrup and there it is ,annasset is the same,when creating a holiday wine and if you can make yourown plumwine add the wine ,simple syrup and extracts of cinnamon and orange the end product is not only to your individual taste its a example of the proper use of extracts....extracts can also be used to fix a good wine good bad..ever now and then I'll make a viognier and add extract of orange and back sweeten just a little to give it a fresh summers touch..SEE..can you see the uses and the advantages of having these items in your kit and they last for up to 2years at least then they should be refreshed....

Rocky · Jun 18, 2011

Very interesting, Joe. Have you ever made a greenapple extract? I have seen them for sale on line, but I was going to try to make one. Would I be on the right track if I juiced the apples (skin and all), boiled off as much water as I could and then added the vodka or Ever Clear?

Rocky · Jun 19, 2011

BTW, I am not sure I can buy Ever Clear here in Ohio. It is reallygrain alcohol (about 190 proof, or so) as I remember. I think they sell it in PA. I may be able to pick up a bottle there.

when good wines gone bad

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