Welch's concord with the super-sugar method

Well, I have no pix to post and so I am remiss, but I tasted the Welch's batch as I racked it over to new carboys, and it seems to have worked out well.

I used a high sugar/lower alcohol yeast method on this batch. SSG was 1.150 and it came out of primary at 1.050 still moderately working. Yeast was RC212 (12% ABV advertised). Four cans of Welch's per gallon were used, plus sugar.

We now have a six and a five of modestly sweet wine that is not rocket fuel in which active fermentation has stopped and stabilization has begun with the addition of sorbate and meta in the transfer and degassing.

For grins, I stuck a half a spiroll of French medium roast oak in the fiver. It's been in there 5 days now, so I'll pull it tonight.

Should be 60 bottles of interesting in 3-4 more weeks. I'll squirrel them away a little longer after bottling. A nice spring taste, maybe, to see how it comes along.

Yes, yes, I know ... sigh ... it's WELCH'S! But I can't help my lowbrow self, it is a fun must for me to play around with.

Next muscadine and then a kit white.

Sound great nice to see you up and about making wine again.
Enjoy!

Thanks. The oak was a nice addition. Just 5 days in, and so nice I pulled it and put it in the other carboy too!

I bottled this yesterday. Got a 60-bottle yield, and it was semi-sweet and tasted about right at its young age so I didn't touch it as far as backsweetening or amending it. It's been bulk aging for around a couple months now, its real fruity and its drinkable, but 6 months will help it out a lot (which is why I made 60 bottles - maybe some will last!)

So the results of this ferment:

1.) 4 cans Welch's concord concentrate per gallon is now my standard after a series of experiments.

2.) The super-sugar method with a very high SG combined with Lalvin RC212 is to me a keeper for this wine. It may be too sweet for some.

3.) Short exposure to one-half of a French medium roast oak spiroll in secondary was a good move. I'll lengthen the time next time, or maybe play with oak cubes in primary. I can see where the oak could add an edge to the wine that will be favorable, but the exact amount of time for the oak is not determined yet. Ideally, I can find that sweet spot where it can be consumed young and it will not have to rest many months to mellow.

I'm messing around with concentrate more right now because there is a vineyard I have found nearby that grows Concord, so this summer I should be able to use real fruit.

if you were to use oak cubes in primary how much would you suggest. My ferment just took off last night and I do plan to oak it a bit in primary.

Loner said:

if you were to use oak cubes in primary how much would you suggest. My ferment just took off last night and I do plan to oak it a bit in primary.

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Kits use 4 ounces.

Thanks .. Will drop them in tonight.

Loner said:

Thanks .. Will drop them in tonight.

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Let us hear about how it works out - type used and what result you get. Thanks.

Started 2/9 at 1.085. Added @4 ounces American Oak Cubes. (Medium Toast) 2/11. Went to 0.992 in primary under airlock. Racked to secondary 2/17. Took a sip tonight and can definitely appreciate the oak taste.

jswordy said:

I used a high sugar/lower alcohol yeast method on this batch. SSG was 1.150 and it came out of primary at 1.050 still moderately working. Yeast was RC212 (12% ABV advertised). Four cans of Welch's per gallon were used, plus sugar.

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I'm glad it turned out the way you like, but your use of RC212 yeast caught my eye, because I use that yeast for my dry red wines from grapes and frozen juice. You say it is advertised at 12% alcohol tolerance, but I have never heard that. Here's the link to Lalvin's yeast strains page: http://www.lalvinyeast.com/strains.asp

I was particularly concerned that RC212 would not handle alcohol up to or over 14%; once I saw that it could handle 16%, I decided to use it. So, I'm trying to figure out if your info. was bad, or does real life differ from Lalvin's laboratory analysis of its yeast? Do you believe the ferment stopped because of the yeast strain or because of the other things you did to arrest it?

Bartman said:

I'm glad it turned out the way you like, but your use of RC212 yeast caught my eye, because I use that yeast for my dry red wines from grapes and frozen juice. You say it is advertised at 12% alcohol tolerance, but I have never heard that. Here's the link to Lalvin's yeast strains page: http://www.lalvinyeast.com/strains.asp

I was particularly concerned that RC212 would not handle alcohol up to or over 14%; once I saw that it could handle 16%, I decided to use it. So, I'm trying to figure out if your info. was bad, or does real life differ from Lalvin's laboratory analysis of its yeast? Do you believe the ferment stopped because of the yeast strain or because of the other things you did to arrest it?

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Apparently I got confused or received bad information about 212 and ABV. The yeast definitely stopped well short of consuming all the sugar because of the high SSG.

I selected 212 because of the red wine characteristics, and it has performed wonderfully for me. I had previously used EC1118 or 71B1122, both of which have much higher ABV tolerances, and the beauty part of 212 is that right out of the carboy at bottling (which in my scheme is about 2 months out of primary), the wine had very little of the "rocket fuel" taste from raw alcohol that the others had imparted. I saved the lees in Mason jars in the fridge, and drank the wine that they settled from with no raw alcohol taste.

I also liked the result of using the oak, and will do that again. I want to experiment more with it.

The ferment is fairly vigorous when the wine goes into secondary (which is an old blueberry winemaking trick I used here). Moving to anaerobic early changes the behavior of the yeast, is my belief (not science, my observational belief). Just be sure to leave headspace or get ready to use your mop.

I did not add more k meta or sorbate until just a few days before I was to bottle it. The wine is semisweet. It is not Mogan David sweet, and there is not a sticky sugar streak when the small amount of leftover liquid is allowed to dry out overnight in the glass (both good signs for my tastes).

Now we'll see with some aging what happens.

I definitely think that, with these three changes (early secondary timing, yeast strain and oak) that I have been fooling around on, I am onto something. This is the first-ever batch of Welch's concord that I did not back sweeten or back flavor prior to bottling, and I do make a lot of this wine.

Now it's recipe tweaking time. If you try it, I would enjoy reading your results and maybe we can tweak it together until we hit on something grand. Can we make silk from a sow's ear? Let's TRY!

If I extracted the info right, you went to 1.150 sg to start and it went into the secondary at 1.050 sg moderately working. Did you take a sg reading of the finished product?
Looking at the Jack Keller chart, 1.150 is off the chart. But making an extrapolation it looks to me like 1.150 would go to about 20.3% alcohol if it could be fermented to 1.000. If you added the adjustment for going all the way to dry, it would be 21.3%. So if your yeast does 16%, it would die off leaving the wine at 1.040 to 1.030, more or less. Inquiring minds want to know. What was your sg at bottling?

Just noticed this thread and have been thinking about trying something with the Welches and just happen to have a packet of RC 212 hanging around. I could have missed it but I don't think you mentioned how much sugar was added. I'd probably try a 5 gal. batch what would you recommend for the sugar and I was also thinking about adding some raisins but again what would you think for a 5 gal. batch???

You can figure it out yourself by looking at the chart on this page: http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/hydrom.asp
Just keep in mind, when you use this to estimate how much sugar to add, you have to account for the sugar that's in the grapes or juice to start with. So, 10 pounds of sugar in 5 gallons would be 13% PLUS whatever sugar was in the juice originally. That's why you want to use a hydrometer.

Gary's telling you right. Test your juice, then add to 1.150. I think I wound up using like 1-1/4 pounds per gallon, IIRC. Pretty sure you can start at 1 pound/gallon with 4 cans of concentrate/gallon and get real close. Then test and add. It's a little dance to get to your desired total volume and SSG reading.

Please, anybody who's trying this, let's hear about your results and tweaks, since it's still experimental until it has been replicated a few times. Thanks.

garymc said:

If I extracted the info right, you went to 1.150 sg to start and it went into the secondary at 1.050 sg moderately working. Did you take a sg reading of the finished product?
Looking at the Jack Keller chart, 1.150 is off the chart. But making an extrapolation it looks to me like 1.150 would go to about 20.3% alcohol if it could be fermented to 1.000. If you added the adjustment for going all the way to dry, it would be 21.3%. So if your yeast does 16%, it would die off leaving the wine at 1.040 to 1.030, more or less. Inquiring minds want to know. What was your sg at bottling?

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You know, those are darned good questions. I bottled this 12/31/12, so that's several batches ago. I can't recall the SG; might still have it written down. I used the hydrometer to calculate the ABV, so I must have taken it. Guess you'll have to make some to find out!

It quiets down pretty quickly in secondary.

I think I'd start a little shy of 1.150. If the finish is 1.030 or higher, that's a little sweet for me. And I have a batch of 1.035 muscadine that won't ferment any further and is way too sweet for me. So I'll have to blend it or add a gallon of juice with no sugar added and see if I can get that to restart. Maybe I'll blend a gallon and replace that gallon with juice.

jswordy said:

Gary's telling you right. Test your juice, then add to 1.150. I think I wound up using like 1-1/4 pounds per gallon, IIRC. Pretty sure you can start at 1 pound/gallon with 4 cans of concentrate/gallon and get real close. Then test and add. It's a little dance to get to your desired total volume and SSG reading.

Please, anybody who's trying this, let's hear about your results and tweaks, since it's still experimental until it has been replicated a few times. Thanks.

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Yes, I did plan to test and adjust I just wanted to be make sure I have enough of every thing on hand once I start. I did see that Keller's recipe was calling for 1-1/4 lb per gal. and was as you said thinking about starting out with 1 lb per gal and a 1 lb of raisins and then see where my SG was then. Does it sound like I'm on the right track?? I will keep you posted when I actually get started.

Enologo said:

Yes, I did plan to test and adjust I just wanted to be make sure I have enough of every thing on hand once I start. I did see that Keller's recipe was calling for 1-1/4 lb per gal. and was as you said thinking about starting out with 1 lb per gal and a 1 lb of raisins and then see where my SG was then. Does it sound like I'm on the right track?? I will keep you posted when I actually get started.

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Yep, sounds good.

It will finish on the sweet side. Please keep me posted by PM. I have quite a few conversations about this going by PM now. People are having FUN! And the ingenuity is awesome.

So far, I've learned the concept is on the right track. Everything seems to be turning out 13% or maybe 14% ABV. That's good to know for my own next batch.

OK here it is. Started yesterday
Bentonite.
16 cans of concentrate.
5 1/2 lbs. of sugar.
1 1/2 lbs. of Raisins.
10 tsp. Acid Blend
2 1/2 tsp. Pectic Enzyme.
5 tsp. yeast Nutrient.
French Oak Chips ( Medium Toast).
H2O to make it 5 gal.
RC 212. Yeast.
Into the primary. Starting SG was about 1.130 if I was reading it correctly and away we go.