Anyone have experience making sacramental wine?

Dhaynes · Mar 22, 2015

The resident sacramental wine maker at my son's Church retired a few years ago. So they have started having to buy port for their services. They use about 25-30 gallons a year. They have asked if we would help them start to make their own wine again and train a few of their members to do it. We're honored but a little out of our comfort zone. Other than some skeeter pee and dragon blood my wife and I have only made kits. We've made two chocolate raspberry port kits but I don't think that is what they have in mind

I don't recall seeing a straight port kit. There is usually a fruit and/or a chocolate combined with it. Anyone know of a straight port kit? I remember reading about people making port from other red wine kits but I don't recall the details. I'm thinking kits are still the way to go because if you have a group of part time inexperience wine makers you want to keep it as fool proof as possible. Having all the chemistry taken care of by experts would certainly make it easier and reduce the chances of making some bad wine.

I was thinking we might need some bigger fermenting and aging vessels but really 30 gallons is just 5 six gallon kits. Then there is the question of how to bottle it? 1.5 L bottles, gallon jugs? Anybody have any experience with this or any ideas? Any help would be appreciated.

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vacuumpumpman · Mar 22, 2015

I would be more than happy to talk to you and work with you.
Please PM me with a phone # and when to call and I would be honored to to help out your church for you.

.

reefman · Mar 23, 2015

vacuumpumpman,
That would be a great thread to start, as I might be in the same situation as Dhaynes and I'm sure there are others. The person who makes our wine at church is nearing retirement so we will be in the same situation.
Can you list some basics?

JohnT · Mar 23, 2015

Rather than all of those carboys, I would go with making 2 54-liter demijohns and also make it from fresh grapes.

ok, so here is what I would do...

Ferment 9 36-pound lugs on their skins to a brix of 11% or 12% sugar* remaining. Punch down 2 times a day.

Once that brix level is achieved, add 6 gallons of 80 proof brandy and allow to sit on skins for a day.

Press and rack into secondary. Add additional back sweetener if needed. After second racking put on med toast oak cubes for 3 weeks.

This should yield 108 liters of port.

* use the Pearson's square to refine this. I am assuming that you have a, initial brix of 24%, but your initial brix will vary.

As far a bottling, I would measure how much is used each week and try to use bottles of that size. You goal should be to have no left overs.

vacuumpumpman · Mar 23, 2015

I have been making port style wine for approx 10 years or so, but I am no expert on it.
It has always been a concern how to get the alcohol up there without dilution.
My ports are made from ever clear (195 proof ) and they are added during fermentation and it stops the fermentation because of the high alcohol content , which leaves you with a heavy bodied port and typically little sweet to off set the ABV. I will typically add the alcohol once there is approx 4% residual sugar left - but that is to the eyes of the winemakers taste.

I use everclear, typically I would add distillers charcoal with the everclear for a week prior to using it. That would usually take out most of the odors that come from it (fussils oils ) Back in the day (from what I read) Port was fortified with non cut brandy, which means distilled wine and not diluted with water,so the abv was similar to everclear

no need to back sweeten or adding sorbate - it can be an early drinking wine as well if done properly.

I also will add oak sticks in the everclear for approx 2 weeks - if not longer prior to adding to my port - it adds a little extra flavoring - similar to brandy

I hope this helps ?????

I personally will not use demi jons as the glass is to thin for me and it I would like to know how much wine do you go thru at 1 setting ?

the_rayway · Mar 23, 2015

Interesting. Generally the sacramental wine we use is concord, and at a usual wine alcohol level. There is a store in town that sells it by the gallon. However, the person at our church who used to supplement has passed on, so a call went out to the general population for any red wine which could be donated. We have used nearly every grape available it seems...

Do you find that most of the churches you all go to use port-strength wine? What denomination are they? Mine is Lutheran.

richmke · Mar 23, 2015

In doing some quick research:

1) Grapes only
2) Max 18% ABV
3) Brandy ok (made from grapes). Everclear is not (made from grain).
4) Sugar seems to be ok.
5) K-meta and K-sorbate is ok

This is a decent summary (mentions 14% abv max, but I've seen 18% in other places):
http://www.davenportdiocese.org/lit/liturgylibrary/Policies/litWinesEucharist-updated112711.pdf

Dilution of the wine is a no-no. However, reconstituting the grape juice is not discussed (kits are a recent phenomena).

So, I would probably skip the port kits, but buy a high end kit.
But, a high end kit has a long aging requirement.
So, maybe a mid-range kit that you can drink in 9 months.

Bottle in whatever quantity is convenient for the Church. If you go through gallons each Sunday, then the larger bottles may be preferred.

If I were doing it, I would:
Get a high end Zinfandel kit.
Boost SG to 1.12 (abv of 16% if all sugar converted).
Use RC-212 (2 packets), which gives up at 14% ABV, which would leave a sweetness of 1.014 SG.

To be on the really safe side, use frozen grapes so you don't have to reconstitute with water.

You don't need a really high quality wine. People are not drinking an entire glass.

vacuumpumpman · Mar 23, 2015

Rich
why not then purchase juice buckets then ?
you can not pass up the price

alot cheaper and easier to work with - considering you take so little of it and you always can add a bit of sugar if needed.

Runningwolf · Mar 23, 2015

vacuumpumpman said:
I use everclear, typically I would add distillers charcoal with the everclear for a week prior to using it. That would usually take out most of the odors that come from it (fussils oils ) Back in the day (from what I read) Port was fortified with non cut brandy, which means distilled wine and not diluted with water,so the abv was similar to everclear

..Or you can run it through a Brita filter twice. This also helps cheap Vodka

the_rayway said:
Interesting. Generally the sacramental wine we use is concord, and at a usual wine alcohol level. There is a store in town that sells it by the gallon. However, the person at our church who used to supplement has passed on, so a call went out to the general population for any red wine which could be donated. We have used nearly every grape available it seems...

Do you find that most of the churches you all go to use port-strength wine? What denomination are they? Mine is Lutheran.

I agree with Ray. I am surprised they would use anything but a semi sweet wine. Are they really using a fortified port in church? I remember churches even using Pink Catawba. Concord seems to be the norm now.

seth8530 · Mar 23, 2015

Or perhaps the frozen must pathway would be a good compromise between kit and juice..... If you can make a kit, the only thing that separates you from working with frozen must is a simple press.

The whole debate of everklear vs brandy is an interesting one. Ideally, you would use high proof grappa, which would give little dilution of grape character since it is distilled from grapes, and the abv is high enough to require relatively small additions. Unfortunately, most grappa I have seen in the US are novelty items with very high price tags.

So,I don't know how many of you guys regularly make mixed drinks with brandy, but the quality seriously counts. Ie, So, I would think long and hard before reaching for the bottom of the shelf brandy to fortify with. To be honest, I think you might be better off with high proof eveklear than a bottom shelf brandy when you start thinking about the quality of the end product for this very reason.

richmke · Mar 23, 2015

vacuumpumpman said:
Rich
why not then purchase juice buckets then ?

Fresh juice is good too, if it is available when you want to ferment. Frozen is available anytime.

JohnT · Mar 24, 2015

seth8530 said:
Or perhaps the frozen must pathway would be a good compromise between kit and juice..... If you can make a kit, the only thing that separates you from working with frozen must is a simple press.

The whole debate of everklear vs brandy is an interesting one. Ideally, you would use high proof grappa, which would give little dilution of grape character since it is distilled from grapes, and the abv is high enough to require relatively small additions. Unfortunately, most grappa I have seen in the US are novelty items with very high price tags.

So,I don't know how many of you guys regularly make mixed drinks with brandy, but the quality seriously counts. Ie, So, I would think long and hard before reaching for the bottom of the shelf brandy to fortify with. To be honest, I think you might be better off with high proof eveklear than a bottom shelf brandy when you start thinking about the quality of the end product for this very reason.

Seth,

I make with brandy. The additional flavor is really worth it (smokey, oaky goodness). All everclear does is bring a grain tasting burn.

Brandy is far more expensive (Even though I use EJ (gallo) at about $50 per gallon). I really do not drink a whole lot of it (a carboy of it will keep myself and my two brothers well stocked for a year or two) so it does not cost me too much.

I ask that you do not take my word for it. I assume that you have not made port with brandy, but I urge you to give it a try. Split a batch with 1/2 brandy and 1/2 everclear. I am almost certain that you will prefer the one with brandy.

vacuumpumpman · Mar 24, 2015

john
I understand where you are going with the brandy and all -
but if you clean up the everclear with carbon and add alot of oak to it.
I will turn it very brown in color - similar to brandy - while still keeping the high ABV.

So I ask you John - have you ever tried this exact procedure ?

I have been making ports now for 12 years now - every year at least 6 gallons if not more this way, they need to sit for
at least 1 year to be smooth. Yes it does have a nice oaky taste because of the oak added to the everclear.

JohnT · Mar 24, 2015

vacuumpumpman said:
john
I understand where you are going with the brandy and all -
but if you clean up the everclear with carbon and add alot of oak to it.
I will turn it very brown in color - similar to brandy - while still keeping the high ABV.

So I ask you John - have you ever tried this exact procedure ?

I have been making ports now for 12 years now - every year at least 6 gallons if not more this way, they need to sit for
at least 1 year to be smooth. Yes it does have a nice oaky taste because of the oak added to the everclear.

My first batch was with everclear. I did oak the port, but not the everclear. Got to say that I did not like the taste of it. Have you every tried making with brandy???

NorCal · Mar 24, 2015

I had a carboy of Zin from fresh grapes that got stuck at 5 brix, took a gallon out, added two handles of Costco brandy (works out close to 20% abv) and the resulting port is quite nice and could be consumed now after 7 months.

vacuumpumpman · Mar 24, 2015

Yes - I have tried the brandy method

I personally like stopping the fermentation so I know exactly where the
alcohol % is at. I noticed that it has a lot more body and overall taste in the port as you are not diluting it.

I do know that you should use carbon then heavy oak it for a minimum a week if not longer - in order to get rid of any aftertaste from the grain alcohol.

I noticed over the years that there are many ways to make wine - there is no perfect method. I personally like how simple this procedure is and the outcome of the final product.

JohnT · Mar 24, 2015

VPM,

I dunno.... My thinking is that there are more flavor components to brandy then just wood and alcohol. I just keep thinking of what I would prefer to sip on.

Still, you do have me curious though. Perhaps I will give it a try.

On stopping fermentation...

I too like to stop the fermentation, but for two other reasons...

I stop the fermentation but allow the port to macerate on the skins. This really draws out a ton of extra body and color.

By stopping the fermentation, I am retaining the natural fruit sugars and am not using any artificial back sweeteners. I do believe that this tastes better.

vacuumpumpman · Mar 24, 2015

JohnT said:
VPM,

I dunno.... My thinking is that there are more flavor components to brandy then just wood and alcohol. I just keep thinking of what I would prefer to sip on.

Still, you do have me curious though. Perhaps I will give it a try.

On stopping fermentation...

I too like to stop the fermentation, but for two other reasons...

I stop the fermentation but allow the port to macerate on the skins. This really draws out a ton of extra body and color.

By stopping the fermentation, I am retaining the natural fruit sugars and am not using any artificial back sweeteners. I do believe that this tastes better.

I totally agree about the stopping fermentation - I like to cold macerate on the skins prior to fermentation. The reason being I don't want the skins to soak up all that alcohol.

heres a test - try taking vodka and adding alot of wood chips to it and come back 1 week later and tasting it ?

Runningwolf · Mar 24, 2015

I think we have got way off the topic and should start a new thread here. With that said I do not like grain alcohol but running it through a brita filter several times helps. I use clean spirits made from grapes. If you have a distillery near by you may be able to get some. I ferment dry and then add the spirits so I do not have to add as much spirits resulting in less dilution. This is not the traditional method but I find it works very well for me. I back sweeten to 8.5% rs. I do not use any k-meta at all.

Someday I will try the more traditional way.

vacuumpumpman · Mar 24, 2015

Dan
You are correct about getting off the topic - but I have been in contact with the original poster -Dhaynes - and found where he can pick up chilean juice in his area for him.

Anyone have experience making sacramental wine?

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