Corn Sugar Addition

Casper137 · Apr 22, 2015

Hi All.

New here and relatively new to wine making.

I've made a 6 gallon kit of red wine about 6 months ago.

I've also made 3 or 4 kits of the fruity wines like Orchard Breezin and Niagara Mist ones.

Currently I am making a Niagara Mist Strawberry Mango Moscato.

My question is ...

I want to bring the alcohol level up.

I measured the SG before adding the sugar and prior to adding the yeast and it was 1.06 (target is 1.05-1.06) then I added 1lb of dextrose corn sugar and measured SG again still prior to adding yeast.

It went up to 1.064 so not much but that apparently will bring the potential alcohol from 8% up to 8.5%. I was hopinng to bring the alcohol up to say 10 or 12%.

I've read that these fruit wines regardless of what the SG says will usually only yield like ~5 or 6%?

How do you know how much sugar can be added before the yeast will stop converting it to alcohol and then you just either have a bunch of unconverted sugar that will make the wine super sweet or it will just kill the wine maybe?

And how do I add it.

Do I keep adding a lb at a time in the first 48 hours till the yeast slows down or what?

It is now down to 1.054 after almost exactly 48 hours and is fermenting nicely.

Had a nice big foam on top after 24 hours and now is clearish (no foam) but looks to be fermenting nicely.

sour_grapes · Apr 22, 2015

Casper137 said:
I've read that these fruit wines regardless of what the SG says will usually only yield like ~5 or 6%?

No, that is not true. You can tweak them (by adding sugar) to any ABV you want (up to the alcohol tolerance of your yeast, ~15% probably).

It went up to 1.064 so not much but that apparently will bring the potential alcohol from 8% up to 8.5%. I was hopinng to bring the alcohol up to say 10 or 12%.

Here is a nice tool called FermCalc http://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.html

Using this calculator, I claim you would need to add 3.6 lbs to raise your must from 1.060 to 1.084. (1.084 would give a bit over 11% ABV.) Since you already added one lb, I claim you need to add another 2.5 to 3.

How do you know how much sugar can be added before the yeast will stop converting it to alcohol and then you just either have a bunch of unconverted sugar that will make the wine super sweet or it will just kill the wine maybe?

It depends on the alcohol tolerance of your yeast. Most of them can ferment up to about 15%, but a few (including the ubiquitous EC-1118) can handle up to 18%. To get 15%, you need a starting SG of about 1.100, and to get 18%, you need a starting SG of 1.125 or so.

And how do I add it.

Do I keep adding a lb at a time in the first 48 hours till the yeast slows down or what?

You can either add it directly to your must and stir, or you can remove a little of your must, dissolve the sugar in it, and add that back to your fermenting vessel. You can certainly add it in small doses, but it will be a little harder to keep track of. Personally, I would just add another 2.5 lbs at one go.

Casper137 · Apr 22, 2015

sour_grapes said:
No, that is not true. You can tweak them (by adding sugar) to any ABV you want (up to the alcohol tolerance of your yeast, ~15% probably).

Here is a nice tool called FermCalc http://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.html

Using this calculator, I claim you would need to add 3.6 lbs to raise your must from 1.060 to 1.084. (1.084 would give a bit over 11% ABV.) Since you already added one lb, I claim you need to add another 2.5 to 3.

It depends on the alcohol tolerance of your yeast. Most of them can ferment up to about 15%, but a few (including the ubiquitous EC-1118) can handle up to 18%. To get 15%, you need a starting SG of about 1.100, and to get 18%, you need a starting SG of 1.125 or so.

You can either add it directly to your must and stir, or you can remove a little of your must, dissolve the sugar in it, and add that back to your fermenting vessel. You can certainly add it in small doses, but it will be a little harder to keep track of. Personally, I would just add another 2.5 lbs at one go.

Thank you.

That website will be helpful in the future.

Also its great to know that most of the packaged yeasts in these fruit wine kits will stand for an increase to almost 15% ABV.

So how long after you add the yeast do you have to add the sugar?

As in since it has now been over 48 hours and my SG is already dropping is it a bad idea to add it now?

How about in another 24 hours?

DoctorCAD · Apr 22, 2015

Or you could get a wine kit and not a wine cooler kit. The mist kits are NOT fruit wines, they are a low alcohol grape wine base with a really strong artifical fruit flavoring.

They are good for what they are, but they are not "real" wine. (ie made from only grapes or fruit and yeast).

Casper137 · Apr 22, 2015

DoctorCAD said:
Or you could get a wine kit and not a wine cooler kit. The mist kits are NOT fruit wines, they are a low alcohol grape wine base with a really strong artifical fruit flavoring.

They are good for what they are, but they are not "real" wine. (ie made from only grapes or fruit and yeast).

I made a batch of red wine about 6 or 8 months ago and we've drank 4 bottles lol.

I've never been a big fan of plain white wine but these 'mist' wine kits as you refer to them the wife and I really enjoy chilled.

If there are proper wine kits that are flavoured like these mist kits I'd gladly give them a go.

sour_grapes · Apr 22, 2015

Casper137 said:
So how long after you add the yeast do you have to add the sugar?

As in since it has now been over 48 hours and my SG is already dropping is it a bad idea to add it now?

How about in another 24 hours?

You can add it anywhere from before you pitch the yeast, until as late as the SG = 1.010 or so. (Perhaps even later, but I would not want to chance it, personally.)

Arne · Apr 23, 2015

One thing, if you add while fermenting, make sure you have plenty of headspace in your primary. The addition can cause the wine to react to the sugar and make it boil over. A little hint, add slowly. Arne.

richmke · Apr 23, 2015

In the Niagra Mist range, I have only made the WE Island Mist kits. I typically add 1/2 of the F-pack and 3 pounds of sugar. I add it in all up front, mix well, and then pitch the yeast. For my taste, the remaining 1/2 F-pack is still too sweet, so I will probably try 2/3 up front next time.

The boost in alcohol makes the ladies really happy.

I've seen people add up to 5# of sugar (and none of the f-pack upfront).

Like Paul said, you can add the sugar anytime (before the first racking), but probably not past SG 1.010. So, anytime in the first 4 days works.

jswordy · Apr 23, 2015

BTW, no need for corn sugar (you must brew, as well). Cheap regular white table sugar works fine.

Casper137 · Apr 23, 2015

sour_grapes said:
You can add it anywhere from before you pitch the yeast, until as late as the SG = 1.010 or so. (Perhaps even later, but I would not want to chance it, personally.)

Thanks. I just went and purchased another 3 lbs of granulated dextrose corn sugar and will add it tonight.

Arne said:
One thing, if you add while fermenting, make sure you have plenty of headspace in your primary. The addition can cause the wine to react to the sugar and make it boil over. A little hint, add slowly. Arne.

I'll be sure to add it slowly lol. Should I just be dumping it in or actually mixing it as I pour it in? The reason I ask is I usually just sprinkle the yeast on top and let it do its thing over the next week or so.

I don't want to aerate if I'm not supposed to at this point.

richmke said:
In the Niagra Mist range, I have only made the WE Island Mist kits. I typically add 1/2 of the F-pack and 3 pounds of sugar. I add it in all up front, mix well, and then pitch the yeast. For my taste, the remaining 1/2 F-pack is still too sweet, so I will probably try 2/3 up front next time.

The boost in alcohol makes the ladies really happy.

I've seen people add up to 5# of sugar (and none of the f-pack upfront).

Like Paul said, you can add the sugar anytime (before the first racking), but probably not past SG 1.010. So, anytime in the first 4 days works.

I don't add the fruit pack until like the 3rd week or so and the last 2 times I have also only added about 2/3rds of it as the first time or two the wine was extremely too sweet with the whole fruit pack added.

jswordy said:
BTW, no need for corn sugar (you must brew, as well). Cheap regular white table sugar works fine.

I actually don't brew although I'd like to get into that at some point.

My wife does a lot of baking and told me I should just make a syrup blend with regular sugar and water or the must but I though with the dextrose corn sugar because it is finer it may ferment easier. I could also be crazy.

richmke · Apr 23, 2015

Casper137 said:
I don't add the fruit pack until like the 3rd week or so and the last 2 times I have also only added about 2/3rds of it as the first time or two the wine was extremely too sweet with the whole fruit pack added.

If you add part of the f-pack into the primary, you get some more of the flavor without the sweetness (yeast converts the sugar to alcohol).

The rest of the f-pack goes in at the normal time (3rd week in your case) and adds flavor and sweetness.

Casper137 · Apr 23, 2015

Just to be sure I'm doing the math correct.

I'll try not to make this confusing lol

So say initially I wanted to bring the SG up to ~1.09 to yield an ABV of ~12%.

That would have meant adding say just under 4 lbs of sugar.

So say after 72 hours my SG is down to 1.04 and I had realized I forgot to add the sugar and wanted to add it at that point.

If I add the 4 lbs at that point and the SG had already dropped .02 (from 1.06 to 1.04 say) would I only want to bring the SG up to 1.07 now as in would I have to take into account the 72 hour drop in SG as that is alcohol that has already been converted correct?

========================================

I had asked in my previous post when I add another 2.5 lbs tonight should I be aerating or degassing the wine as I mix it in to stir up the sugars?

I ask because usually I won't mix the wine at all once I have sprinkled the yeast on top until it is time to move it to the secondary.

richmke · Apr 23, 2015

4# of sugar will add the same amount of alcohol regardless of when it is added.

Normal caveat of: Add during primary fermentation, not exceed alcohol tolerance of yeast, etc.

If the SG changes by 0.030 when added, then you can adjust your starting SG by the same amount to estimate ending ABV.

Note: You may not be able to accurately measure the SG change with a hydrometer. The sugar needs time to dissolve and disperse. That happens at the same time the yeast is converting sugar to alcohol. When you do it upfront, the SG after 12-24 hours is a better measure for ABV. The yeast is still building, and has a minimal amount of sugar conversion. If you wait until fermentation is well underway to add the sugar, that is when a large amount of sugar is being converted at the same time it is dissolving and dispersing into solution. Better to use a calculator to estimate SG change from a certain amount of sugar being added.

sour_grapes · Apr 23, 2015

Casper137 said:
So say initially I wanted to bring the SG up to ~1.09 to yield an ABV of ~12%.

That would have meant adding say just under 4 lbs of sugar.

So say after 72 hours my SG is down to 1.04 and I had realized I forgot to add the sugar and wanted to add it at that point.

If I add the 4 lbs at that point and the SG had already dropped .02 (from 1.06 to 1.04 say) would I only want to bring the SG up to 1.07 now as in would I have to take into account the 72 hour drop in SG as that is alcohol that has already been converted correct?

richmke said:
4# of sugar will add the same amount of alcohol regardless of when it is added.

Yes, Casper, you are essentially correct. Rich's comments are in line with this reasoning.

There is a subtlety here, however, which is easy to get overlooked. (Let's forget about fermentation for a second.)

When you add sugar, the volume of the must changes. Thus, the second pound of sugar will raise the SG by slightly less than the first pound of sugar (because you are adding it to a slightly larger volume). That is why I gave you an answer in terms of total pounds you need to add to your initial, 6 gallon must.

This fact makes Rich's procedure below slightly inaccurate:

If the SG changes by 0.030 when added, then you can adjust your starting SG by the same amount to estimate ending ABV.

This procedure is not exact, due to the changed volume, but, as Rich says, is a good estimate of the ending ABV. Certainly close enough for all practical purposes.

Better to use a calculator to estimate SG change from a certain amount of sugar being added.

I agree with Rich.

Casper137 · Apr 23, 2015

sour_grapes said:
Yes, Casper, you are essentially correct. Rich's comments are in line with this reasoning.

There is a subtlety here, however, which is easy to get overlooked. (Let's forget about fermentation for a second.)

When you add sugar, the volume of the must changes. Thus, the second pound of sugar will raise the SG by slightly less than the first pound of sugar (because you are adding it to a slightly larger volume). That is why I gave you an answer in terms of total pounds you need to add to your initial, 6 gallon must.

This fact makes Rich's procedure below slightly inaccurate:

This procedure is not exact, due to the changed volume, but, as Rich says, is a good estimate of the ending ABV. Certainly close enough for all practical purposes.

I agree with Rich.

Thanks Rich and Grapes.

Mucho Appreciated.

That calculator is a handy tool.

So I just need that last question answered about aerating/degassing in the primary.

Is it a bad idea?

Should I be mixing the sugars up into the must as I add them?

Or just pour them in slowly and let it do its thing since it's already at ~72 hours and fermenting nicely?

Casper137 · Apr 23, 2015

richmke said:
If you add part of the f-pack into the primary, you get some more of the flavor without the sweetness (yeast converts the sugar to alcohol).

The rest of the f-pack goes in at the normal time (3rd week in your case) and adds flavor and sweetness.

Oh ...and this I didn't even consider which is an absolutely great tip.

this way I can add the entire fruit pack without getting the entirely too much sweetness that I've got in the past.

Casper137 · Apr 23, 2015

Arne said:
One thing, if you add while fermenting, make sure you have plenty of headspace in your primary. The addition can cause the wine to react to the sugar and make it boil over. A little hint, add slowly. Arne.

lol @ me

I didn't heed your warning so well.

I took some of the must out and checked SG and got 1.022

So I figured I'd go ahead and add that other 3 lbs of sugar.

I had the 3 more lbs of sugar seperated into 3 packages.

I started to add the first package of 1 lb onto/into the foam and after adding about a quarter of the bag the bag slipped and the rest dumped in.

Oh ya ....it foamed over good lol.

It settled back down quickly so I just went ahead and added the other two bags and about a 3rd of the F-Pack.

I also slowly stirred the entire 6 gallons after adding all the sugar.

I hope losing some of that good foam off the top won't effect the fermentation by losing some of the yeast or anything.

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