Did I Over Agitate My Wine?

QuiQuog · Jun 28, 2016

Over agitated may be the wrong phrase, I beat the ever loving gravy out of it.

I just bottled a WE Gewurztraminer/Verdelho/Muscat, but beforehand I did a shake test in a small bottle and it seemed to have the carbonation of Mountain Dew. So I used my handy dandy 3 prong whip and gave it a quick degassing, I didn't take a temperature reading but the ambient temp in the house has been ~70-74°f. Lots of bubbles, so I did another shake test with no change. Degassed a bit harder, still very gassy. Getting frustrated, I divided it into two carboys and whipped the $!&# out of it, stirring a half carboy of wine up to the rim and reversing it several times. Only a minor change in the shake test. So I proceeded to beat the ever loving gravy out of it, twice more. It's possible that I lost my head in the fog of war and beat the enemy more than I'm admitting to. I tested it again and still had some gas release, but I gave in and bottled it.

Question. Did I kill it? In whipping it this way, did I introduce oxygen that will ruin or reduce the life of the wine, or what effects will it have?

AZMDTed · Jun 28, 2016

Welcome to the most frustrating part of winemaking, degassing. You did not lose your mind, sadly you may have given it the minimal it needs. The only time I've truly degassed my wine by whipping with the three prong whip was when I did it for over an hour over two days. Solid over an hour, not including the time waiting for the built up bubbles to go down.

Just be careful not to let the 'tornado' go too long before you reverse, try to minimize the oxygen sucked in. I've never over oxidized my wine this way, but I surely have had a lot of bad tasting gassy wine by being conservative and only doing it for 30-40 minutes. And the 4 minutes by instructions are insulting. Just keep your SO2 up.

I've whipped, I've vacuumed racked, I've let it sit in a carboy for six months, and I still have gas. Maybe we have a Boyle's Law expert out there, but I'm thinking that since my elevation is 120 feet that I have a much harder time getting wine out than those at a couple thousand feet.

I will post a pic soon of an experience I had last night to make my point. Good luck.

AZMDTed · Jun 28, 2016

Here is a Lodi Cab that I fermented last September. I whipped it for about 15 minutes at the time, trying to follow the instructions, but not being able to do only four. I vacuum racked it a couple times before bottling, but I did not bulk age it. It's been in bottles since November.

Last night I tried it and the gas was horrible. I poured 21 bottles back into a carboy, and then whipped it solid for 5 minutes. That turned the wine into a pink slurry of bubbles and left 3" of foam above the wine when I stopped. I then put my vacuum pump on it and here's is what I got. I think the extra bubbles are more likely expanded original bubbles than more pulled from solution.

The good news is that it was degassed after this. But I don't ever want to uncork and pour a batch again.

I've started bulk aging since then and after 5 months still have significant gas. Back to whipping for an hour for me.

cmsben61 · Jun 28, 2016

Now that's a lot of gas!

QuiQuog · Jun 28, 2016

Well, I'm glad to know that I'm not crazy. I didn't seem to have the same problem with the Lodi Zin I bottled a few months ago. It feels pretty still when I taste it. Although I had it bulk aging for a little over a year. I'm clearing a batch of hard pink lemonade that I had attempted to degass a couple of weeks ago with the same technique over the course of 3 hours. I'll check that again before I bottle it.

What do you think of strapping a heat belt to it and raising the temp to 80° before I start? Would the air pressure affect the process much?

AZMDTed · Jun 28, 2016

I think raising the temp to the high 70s to 80 for a day before you whip it is probably the best thing you can do. I let the 21 bottles I poured back in sit upstairs for a day at 77 degrees, and as you could see, it freely parted with it's gas then.

I think my original temp was 73 when I tried to degas this batch last year. Maybe there's a break point between 75-80 that let's it go. Plus, I still think that atmospheric pressure plays a significant part too, whether caused a weather system or altitude or both. I believe that the higher the pressure the more the CO2 wants to stay in the wine, but I took fluid dynamics about when Archimedes was tinkering around with a screw (maybe I'm exaggerating that part a bit).

Johnd · Jun 28, 2016

Sadly, a $99, 29inHg vacuum pump and a few plastic fittings will accomplish the job in a few minutes.

AZMDTed · Jun 28, 2016

Johnd said:
Sadly, a $99, 29inHg vacuum pump and a few plastic fittings will accomplish the job in a few minutes.

If you've got a specific pump in mind I'm willing to try it. I'd like to get my carboys in the new wine cellar as quick as possible, but want them to be properly degassed first.

Johnd · Jun 28, 2016

AZMDTed said:
If you've got a specific pump in mind I'm willing to try it. I'd like to get my carboys in the new wine cellar as quick as possible, but want them to be properly degassed first.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/322139107345?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true

AZMDTed · Jun 28, 2016

Thanks, that looks the same as the oft mentioned one at harbor freight. Looks like I will be picking one up on Saturday. My last hope.

Johnd · Jun 28, 2016

AZMDTed said:
Thanks, that looks the same as the oft mentioned one at harbor freight. Looks like I will be picking one up on Saturday. My last hope.

It is the same one, I've posted it numerous times in different threads for those who don't want to wait to degas with time. It just works as long as your wine isn't too cold.

AZMDTed · Jun 29, 2016

Johnd said:
It is the same one, I've posted it numerous times in different threads for those who don't want to wait to degas with time. It just works as long as your wine isn't too cold.

I picked one up at Harbor Freight at lunch for $79.99, plus a free tape measure

I'll get some fittings and a vacuum gauge and hook her up this weekend. As I understand from what I've found from you and others on here, basically you run it until it holds about 25 in/hg steady for five minutes, is that correct? I haven't taken it out of the box yet, but is there a regulator on this or is it just full out vacuum when it's on?

If this works, then it will definitely be a game changer for me in how I produce wine and how I use my wine room. I'd love to get the bulk aging carboys in the cooler as soon as possible rather than leaving them out at basement room temp to degas for months.

BTW, have a great cruise.

Johnd · Jun 29, 2016

AZMDTed said:
I picked one up at Harbor Freight at lunch for $79.99, plus a free tape measure

I'll get some fittings and a vacuum gauge and hook her up this weekend. As I understand from what I've found from you and others on here, basically you run it until it holds about 25 in/hg steady for five minutes, is that correct? I haven't taken it out of the box yet, but is there a regulator on this or is it just full out vacuum when it's on?

If this works, then it will definitely be a game changer for me in how I produce wine and how I use my wine room. I'd love to get the bulk aging carboys in the cooler as soon as possible rather than leaving them out at basement room temp to degas for months.

BTW, have a great cruise.

There is no regulator, it just sucks when you flip the switch. You'll need a couple of little fittings to get from the threaded nipple on the pump to a fish tank pump type tubing, and another to go from the tubing to the hole in your carboy bung. I just used pieces and parts from the brake bleeder setup I used to have.

Once you have it ready to go, here are a few pointers. Once the temp is right, make sure you have some headspace to work with, give the wine a good agitation with your spoon and hook up the pump. Turn it on and back off quickly in the beginning, the foam will be blazing out of there and get sucked into the pump quickly (I have a reservoir on mine to catch that if it happens). Go in short bursts, letting the foam subside between them. You'll be able to run longer and longer as more is removed. Towards the end of the process, the bubbles change from little foamy bubbles to big bubbles that make no foam and my pump is approaching 29inHg. Once to the point of big bubbles, I usually let it run for bit before calling it quits.

QuiQuog · Jun 29, 2016

Is there any danger of imploding the carboy?

AZMDTed · Jun 29, 2016

It's my understanding that as long as you keep the vacuum below 30 inches and you don't have any cracks in the glass carboy that this is unlikely to implode it. Demijohns may be too weak. And plastic won't work.

DoctorCAD · Jun 29, 2016

Vacuum racking is much better than just simply sucking the gas directly out of a carboy. With vacuum racking, you can "sheet" the wine down the side of the empty carboy. The thin film allows much more efficient gas removal with the benefit of racking off the lees.

Johnd · Jun 29, 2016

DoctorCAD said:
Vacuum racking is much better than just simply sucking the gas directly out of a carboy. With vacuum racking, you can "sheet" the wine down the side of the empty carboy. The thin film allows much more efficient gas removal with the benefit of racking off the lees.

And expose it to oxygen the whole time unless you pump your carboys full of nitrogen? No thanks.
I can degas a wine in a few minutes, not multiple rackings, just done in minutes, no oxygen ever enters except when you replace your airlock with the vacuum fitting.
When you do WE kits that the lees stay in for clearing stages, your wine never even leaves the carboy, less mess for sure.
I respect your opinion, but respectfully disagree that it's better.

DoctorCAD · Jun 30, 2016

Johnd said:
And expose it to oxygen the whole time unless you pump your carboys full of nitrogen? No thanks.
I can degas a wine in a few minutes, not multiple rackings, just done in minutes, no oxygen ever enters except when you replace your airlock with the vacuum fitting.
When you do WE kits that the lees stay in for clearing stages, your wine never even leaves the carboy, less mess for sure.
I respect your opinion, but respectfully disagree that it's better.

Wrong...the receiving carboy has been evacuated of air before the wine starts to flow into it. With vacuum racking, virtually zero oxygen exposure occurs.

Another "benefit" is that the vacuum works only on the surface area of the wine and with thin-film degassing, a huge amount of surface area is available for the vacuum to work on, when in a carboy, the surface area is tiny and the vacuum must pull gas from deep in the wine.

I also never have to follow the steps that you laid out, stirring, starting and stopping, large headspace, foaming...none of that is ever needed with vacuum racking.

How about we just say both ways work and leave it at that.

jburtner · Jun 30, 2016

And the release of CO2 and continual vacum quickly replaces any minimally remaining O2.

I recently tested the difference with pulling vacuum on a full carboy and wine volcano behaviour limited my ability to pull constant vacuum until degassed. One vacuum racking in comparison pretty much degassed in this case. Subsequent full carboy vacuum pulls produce zero bubbles. This was after many days of the drill/wine whip procedure. Same behaviour in three different carboys / wines. Im sold on the procedure and very happy that I can protect from O2 by maintaining a vacuum whilst bulk aging.

Thx,
Jb

chrisjw · Jun 30, 2016

I have tried all methods of degassing including vacuum degassing. None have worked well for me.

I now degass my wine by transferring it to a 3 gallon carboy (3/4 full), putting a silicone bong on it, and rocking it on a towel vigorously, with my hand over the bung. The gases will explode on the first few shakes so care needs to be taken. After the initial explosions which will fill the air space with CO2, I shake it vigorously for about 30 seconds. I do this a few times. I might lose a few ounces with this method but it's fast and simple and you know when it's done.

Did I Over Agitate My Wine?

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