1st Batch.... Should I top off Secondary?

[winemaker81]

I was just kidding. I will save some, especially if it tastes like this for a while

Your first batches will go far faster than you believe. You'll blink and realize you're drinking that last bottle. There is excitement and pride of accomplishment -- in that haze the wine seems to evaporate.

Every person on this forum was a beginner and many remember what it felt like. May is the 40th anniversary of my first wine, a forgettable rhubarb made using bread yeast in a beer ball using a recipe from a local newspaper. Yet I remember the excitement of that first batch.

Sure, it's different, but I felt that excitement again when I crushed grapes in October and pressed them a week later. For some of us, that rush never goes away.

 

[Riledup5]

Just racked both my Chardonnay and Pinot Noir from secondary to another carboy. Your advice/thoughts is/are appreciated...

Chard: In the "secondary" the Chard got pretty clear. When I racked tonight, it was not nearly as clear as it was. Did I rack incorrectly, or is it normal to siphon some of the lees into the next carboy? Will it clear up on it's own? I added 1/4 tsp of KMeta. When I tasted and swished, I could feel some CO2. Is this normal or should it be completely degassed at this point? SG when I put in secondary was 0.996 and now is 0.995 (racked to secondary on 1/26). I topped off with like wine. Should I use solid bung or airlock?

Pinot Noir: Honestly, I cannot tell how clear it is. When a tasted on 2/5, I put it in a wine glass and it looked pretty clear. I cannot tell if it clouded up like the Chard. SG is still 0.992 (same as when I racked into secondary on 1/26). Added a 1/4 tsp of KMeta. Still tastes "off", as in not good at all. I wish I could explain, but again, my palette is not trained to detect exactly what it is. I topped off with a like wine and am currently enjoying the remainder of that "like wine". Again, should I use solid bung or airlock? Thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Robert R]

WInemaker81 Speaks the truth.

Save at least one bottle for at least 18-24 months and you will be shocked how much better it tastes.
My first batch of Blueberry wine was bottled at 4 1/2 months and first bottle consumed at 5 months. I was happy, or so I thought. When I opened the last bottle at about 12 months (It was just a 1 gallon/5 bottle batch). THEN I was embarrassed that I had shared that young IMMATURE wine with friends as a babe at 5 months.

Have never seen anyone post on here. "Ah I was so dissappointed when I opened that bottle of wine at 2 years." Unless it needed even more time aging.

About a month ago, I opened the last bottle of a CC Old Vine Zinfandel I made sometime in early 2016 and bottled around the end of 2017. It was very good!

 

[hounddawg]

Just racked both my Chardonnay and Pinot Noir from secondary to another carboy. Your advice/thoughts is/are appreciated...

Chard: In the "secondary" the Chard got pretty clear. When I racked tonight, it was not nearly as clear as it was. Did I rack incorrectly, or is it normal to siphon some of the lees into the next carboy? Will it clear up on it's own? I added 1/4 tsp of KMeta. When I tasted and swished, I could feel some CO2. Is this normal or should it be completely degassed at this point? SG when I put in secondary was 0.996 and now is 0.995 (racked to secondary on 1/26). I topped off with like wine. Should I use solid bung or airlock?

Pinot Noir: Honestly, I cannot tell how clear it is. When a tasted on 2/5, I put it in a wine glass and it looked pretty clear. I cannot tell if it clouded up like the Chard. SG is still 0.992 (same as when I racked into secondary on 1/26). Added a 1/4 tsp of KMeta. Still tastes "off", as in not good at all. I wish I could explain, but again, my palette is not trained to detect exactly what it is. I topped off with a like wine and am currently enjoying the remainder of that "like wine". Again, should I use solid bung or airlock? Thoughts?

Thanks!

airlocks to make sure your wine will degas,,, time will degas and try not to rack lees when your racking,, as for your taste, you'll lean, but you must remember that your wines are young, and with time they will mature, a young wine will taste a little ruff, yet after a year or two it will be so
much better
Dawg

 

[Riledup5]

airlocks to make sure your wine will degas,,, time will degas and try not to rack lees when your racking,, as for your taste, you'll lean, but you must remember that your wines are young, and with time they will mature, a young wine will taste a little ruff, yet after a year or two it will be so
much better
Dawg

Thanks dawg.... I tried not to siphon the lees and thought I did a good job. I guess my question is, is this normal? And should I again add clearing agents?

 

[winemaker81]

@Riledup5, you probably sucked up some lees. It happens, and it will fix itself. Next racking, tilt the carboy and rack down to near sediment, making sure you don't suck any up. Then pour the remainder into a tall bottle and put in the fridge for a week to clear.

I'm definitely in favor of degassing, but if you've already degassed, you got most of it. Don't degas again -- time will finish the job.

I say no to solid bungs unless it's in a barrel where the wine is degassed and past MLF. A solid bung will blow if the pressure builds -- I had one pop out of a barrel when I was standing next to it ... scared the heck out of me! And taught me a good lesson.

Recently I started using vented bungs for my carboys, once the wine is fully degassed. If there is any activity, I want an airlock so I can see it, but once that's done the bung eliminates the need to watch the water level in the airlocks.

 

[Riledup5]

@Riledup5, you probably sucked up some lees. It happens, and it will fix itself. Next racking, tilt the carboy and rack down to near sediment, making sure you don't suck any up. Then pour the remainder into a tall bottle and put in the fridge for a week to clear.

I'm definitely in favor of degassing, but if you've already degassed, you got most of it. Don't degas again -- time will finish the job.

I say no to solid bungs unless it's in a barrel where the wine is degassed and past MLF. A solid bung will blow if the pressure builds -- I had one pop out of a barrel when I was standing next to it ... scared the heck out of me! And taught me a good lesson.

Recently I started using vented bungs for my carboys, once the wine is fully degassed. If there is any activity, I want an airlock so I can see it, but once that's done the bung eliminates the need to watch the water level in the airlocks.

View attachment 71463

Thank you @winemaker81 I see it already starting to settle out, but still cloudy. My wife just told me yesterday that patience is not my strong suit On average, how long does it take to settle out? Before I racked, the airlock wasn't bubbling at all, and the water level in the airlock was pretty even.

 

[winemaker81]

On average, how long does it take to settle out? Before I racked, the airlock wasn't bubbling at all, and the water level in the airlock was pretty even.

The gross lees settle pretty quickly on their own, and kieselsol/chitosan work in a matter of days. With the resettling? Impossible to tell. Unless you have more than a dusting, ignore it for 3 months.

If you're not using a fining agent and not degassing, settling can take months. There isn't a solid answer on this, as there are too many factors.

At this point, there should be no (or very little) activity in the airlock.

If you're having a problem with patience, buy another dozen carboys and and start filling them. You'll always have something to mess with while letting the older batches do their thing. [I'm only partially joking on this ....]

 

[Riledup5]

Then pour the remainder into a tall bottle and put in the fridge for a week to clear.

@winemaker81 I will do this, but it brings up a question. By not racking everything and putting an amount in the fridge for a week to settle, would that put the wine that got racked into the carboy in jeopardy from O2? How much (volume-wise) do you typically have to put in the fridge?

 

[Scooter68]

The volume you have to put into the fridge - It depends. If you can get the lees to settle nicely you might only have 12-20 oz. I just pulled a 16 oz bottle from the fridge after 3 days and I was able to return 5-6 oz to the batch using a turkey baster. That was from a batch that started out at 5.7 gallons of blackberry and is currently at about 4 gallons and 32 oz. ( 2x 16 oz bottles)

I would avoid putting the heavier lees into the fridge as thats where the off smells/taste can start.

It all depends on your batch size and the type of fruit you are fermenting.

If fermentation and/or heavy CO2 gassing off is not going on, then your non-refrigerated container should be topped off or the wine moved to smaller containers so you can get headspace down to the proper levels. Even the refrigerated wine should be put in with as little headspace as possible.\

By the way the fridge should stall or stop fermentation - until the wine is back at room temp. Off-gassing can still occur. I opened a 1.2 gallon of wine stored in our fridge for about 4 months with tight top on it. When I losened the top - Fizzt! Definite gas pressure in there. Nothing major sort of like a 2 liter soda pop once opened and storred in the fridge for a week.

 

[winemaker81]

@Riledup5, I agree with @Scooter68 -- don't pour the heavy sludge, just what pours easily. I was unclear on that point.

I plan batches so my primary container(s) will be full with more for necessary topup in smaller containers. 23 liter kits go into 19 liter carboys with the excess in smaller containers. I purchase 3 lugs (36 lbs/16 kg each) of fresh grapes so I can fill a 19 liter carboy.

Any time I run short (and regardless of my planning, it happens) I top with a compatible wine.

One example -- couple years ago I purchased an elderberry concentrate that was designed to dilute to 5 gallons. To stretch it, I purchased a liter of red grape concentrate and diluted the mix to 5.75 total gallons. If I didn't get the concentrate, I might have added another fruit (fresh or concentrate). Or topped the carboy with red wine ....

As Scooter said, the amount going into the fridge varies dramatically. If I have less then 375 ml, I don't usually bother with it as I'll recover very little wine. Last spring I filled a 1.5 liter bottle with sludge -- the lees compacted to about 1". This is extreme, I typically save about half.

See this post for pictures.

I aim for as little head space as possible in the bottle that goes into the fridge. However, given the cold temperature and the short duration, I've yet to have a problem with the saved wine. Please note that I always check the saved wine before using it, to ensure there are no problem.

 

[Scooter68]

100% agree with Winemaker81 - Planning ahead saves a lot of headaches but sometimes things just happen. My latest batch of Blackberry from a Wine base and a couple of lbs of Wild Blackberries started out at 5.7 gallons and now I've got 4 gallons and two 16 oz bottles of topping off backup. The 16oz bottle I put in the fridge gave me back 5-6 oz so sometimes it's not much. If I don't need that extra 5-6 oz I can play with it by adding some simple syrup to see how it will turn out (This is a 17.5% ABV Batch)

So some things you can plan for others, you just have to wing it.

 

[Riledup5]

@Riledup5, I agree with @Scooter68 -- don't pour the heavy sludge, just what pours easily. I was unclear on that point.

I plan batches so my primary container(s) will be full with more for necessary topup in smaller containers. 23 liter kits go into 19 liter carboys with the excess in smaller containers. I purchase 3 lugs (36 lbs/16 kg each) of fresh grapes so I can fill a 19 liter carboy.

Any time I run short (and regardless of my planning, it happens) I top with a compatible wine.

One example -- couple years ago I purchased an elderberry concentrate that was designed to dilute to 5 gallons. To stretch it, I purchased a liter of red grape concentrate and diluted the mix to 5.75 total gallons. If I didn't get the concentrate, I might have added another fruit (fresh or concentrate). Or topped the carboy with red wine ....

As Scooter said, the amount going into the fridge varies dramatically. If I have less then 375 ml, I don't usually bother with it as I'll recover very little wine. Last spring I filled a 1.5 liter bottle with sludge -- the lees compacted to about 1". This is extreme, I typically save about half.

See this post for pictures.

I aim for as little head space as possible in the bottle that goes into the fridge. However, given the cold temperature and the short duration, I've yet to have a problem with the saved wine. Please note that I always check the saved wine before using it, to ensure there are no problem.

Thanks for that. I am about to rack a Sauv Blanc from primary into secondary and will definitely give that a try. I was surprised at how much like wine I had to use to top off. This should definitely help. Appreciate the advice!

 

[RickD]

My first racking, blackberry (SG 0.993), topped off. My standard batch is 1.2 gallons but I might dial that back a bit once I learn what I'm doing.

 

[Riledup5]

My first racking, blackberry (SG 0.993), topped off. My standard batch is 1.2 gallons but I might dial that back a bit once I learn what I'm doing.
View attachment 71506

Ha! You're smarter than me. I never would have thought of turning the bung upside down! Brilliant! Learn something new everyday

 

[Riledup5]

My first racking, blackberry (SG 0.993), topped off. My standard batch is 1.2 gallons but I might dial that back a bit once I learn what I'm doing.
View attachment 71506

So I racked my Sauv Blanc and racked the very bottom of it into a 750mL wine bottle. I cannot get the inverted bung to stay on the bottle, the CO2 keeps popping it off. Suggestions?

 

[hounddawg]

So I racked my Sauv Blanc and racked the very bottom of it into a 750mL wine bottle. I cannot get the inverted bung to stay on the bottle, the CO2 keeps popping it off. Suggestions?

yep. you use a universal drilled bung and airlock it,,,
Dawg

 

[hounddawg]

@Riledup5, you probably sucked up some lees. It happens, and it will fix itself. Next racking, tilt the carboy and rack down to near sediment, making sure you don't suck any up. Then pour the remainder into a tall bottle and put in the fridge for a week to clear.

I'm definitely in favor of degassing, but if you've already degassed, you got most of it. Don't degas again -- time will finish the job.

I say no to solid bungs unless it's in a barrel where the wine is degassed and past MLF. A solid bung will blow if the pressure builds -- I had one pop out of a barrel when I was standing next to it ... scared the heck out of me! And taught me a good lesson.

Recently I started using vented bungs for my carboys, once the wine is fully degassed. If there is any activity, I want an airlock so I can see it, but once that's done the bung eliminates the need to watch the water level in the airlocks.

View attachment 71463

hum,,,, I'd heard talk of these for quite a spell about these bungs ,but since i did not research them,, this is the first one i have seen,
Dawg

 

[winemaker81]

My first racking, blackberry (SG 0.993), topped off. My standard batch is 1.2 gallons but I might dial that back a bit once I learn what I'm doing.

Looking at the amount of sediment you have, I'm guessing that you've got just enough wine to fill the jug once you've racked. I'd let the wine settle an extra few days for the lees to compact more, so you lose less volume.

hum,,,, I'd heard talk of these for quite a spell about these bungs ,but since i did not research them,, this is the first one i have seen,

I really like the vented bungs. For the short term they aren't necessarily useful, but when bulk aging longer than 3 months? Yeah, IMO they're worth having simply to avoid having to watch the airlocks.

 

[Riledup5]

yep. you use a universal drilled bung and airlock it,,,
Dawg

I think I was not using enough force. I pushed down on it with a lot of force last night and that did the trick. Just checked this morning and it is already settling quite a bit.