1st Racking

[David Engel]

Hi All,

Question for those who know. I read (everywhere, that the 1st rack is done 1-2 days after the crush (red grapes)). I enclosed a picture of my carboys and you can distinctly see the separation of color, and the gross lees on the bottom. All the research Im seeing says rack once and then again at bottling. If I rack this tomorrow (I understand its to get the wine off that pile of goo on the bottom), Im going to have cloudy wine again (which will settle and become a new layer of lees on the bottom of the carboy) and if I just let it sit on the lees for months, won't that also be detrimental to the wine? Might a second rack be in order sometime before bottling depending on how much settles again?

 

[winemaker81]

Based upon my research, the info you picked up is partially correct.

Numerous sources state that gross lees drop within 24 to 72 hours of the end of fermentation. Different sources say different things (no surprise there) and my take on the subject is the range. IMO it's not a constant value, so having a range is most realistic.

If you rack early, you will leave gross lees in the wine. My early mentors had what I call the "1-3-3 rule", which I describe here.

Me? I rack 1 to 2 weeks after pressing, which gives the wine time to finish any last fermentation and lets the gross lees drop. After that, I don't typically rack until bottling, as it's fine lees (yeast hulls) which cause no harm and can be beneficial (look up sur lie and battonage).

YMMV

 

[FlamingoEmporium]

I highly agree with Bryan, give it enough time to settle well right after fermentation is mostly done. you don’t have to base it on an actual number of days. Like you say if you rack it a little too early it wNt have settled enough and you will be dealing with it at the next racking. I ferment different fruit wines so depending on what’s fermenting, a second racking is usually called for about three weeks later. I’ve done that second and usually final racking before bottling at two weeks and occasionally four weeks or a little longer for fruits that are slow to clear. But that second racking now has a Very tiny amount of lees for me now.

what I see in your picture has not settled enough. If you are impatient and “have to” rack, a few hours in the refrigerator will help drop some of those lees, right before racking.

 

[winemaker81]

I ferment different fruit wines so depending on what’s fermenting, a second racking is usually called for about three weeks later.

This is a key point. The research I did regarded grape wines, but it should (more-or-less apply to any fruit.

Reading through all the POVs can be frustrating, although some are easy to discount. One author stated that fruit begins decomposition immediately after the end of fermentation and wine must be racked immediately to avoid off flavors. Contrasting that is EM that can last up to 90 days in Burgundy. I trust that Burgundian winemakers have a better clue.

 

[sour_grapes]

Hi All,

Question for those who know. I read (everywhere, that the 1st rack is done 1-2 days after the crush (red grapes)).

You meant "after press," right?

 

[David Engel]

Good Evening All,

What a difference a day makes! Below is a picture I just took. I think I’m going to rack tomorrow. Since I already know I will have to make adjustments later on, I can rack in a few months if I think I need to, don‘t think I will have to though as my brix was a -1 when I pressed.

 

[David Engel]

Good Afternoon All,

Racking this morning went well. I started with 3 gallons of free run and had 1 and 3/4 gallons of press juice. I managed to retain 2 gallons of free run and have 2 1/4 gallons of juice after I had to mix the rest of the free run with press juice. I was not overly concerned with trying to salvage every drop possible, trying to not get any gross lees into the clean carboys.

Did a taste test... smells like wine (I think) but is pretty sour. I had a leftover glass full and took it to the kitchen and experimented with mixing in simple syrup... came up with something that was definitely wine tasting but sweet. Wife thought it tasted like a desert wine. There is a real fine line there of not enough sweetener or too much.

Since I'm not doing any MLF, and we know my ph is low... should I be adding SO2 or anything for the ph right now? If not when?

 

[winemaker81]

I was not overly concerned with trying to salvage every drop possible, trying to not get any gross lees into the clean carboys.

This is WAY too early to worry too much about lees. My first racking is typically muddy, as otherwise I'd be throwing away good wine. A while back I documented what I do to reduce wine loss.

Since I'm not doing any MLF, and we know my ph is low... should I be adding SO2 or anything for the ph right now? If not when?

SO2 doesn't have much impact on pH. I do not worry about pH or acidity at this point. The wine is full of CO2, which provides an acidic taste, and the wine may drop tartrate crystals during bulk aging. The first time I'd consider worrying much about pH is after 3 months of bulk aging.

I would add K-meta at this point, to protect the wine.

 

[Newbie Mel]

This post interests me because I have several beginner mistakes going on. I did this batch of persimmon with about 20 lbs of fruit, thinking it would be a bit over 3 gallons. I did primary ferment in 5 gallon bucket, but didn’t account for the weight of the fruit (in a bag) so it was reaching top of bucket with less than 3 gallons of actual liquid. I ended up with 2 gallons. First looks good, 2nd lots of gross lees after 2 days since racking. Plan is to ignore it for 3-4 weeks. Do you think this is going to drop? It looks gross to me. Is that what’s meant “gross lees”? Also weird thing, SG dropped to .988 ish and when I racked the remaining gross lees was still visually bubbling, is that just off gassing?

 

[winemaker81]

This post interests me because I have several beginner mistakes going on. I did this batch of persimmon with about 20 lbs of fruit, thinking it would be a bit over 3 gallons. I did primary ferment in 5 gallon bucket, but didn’t account for the weight of the fruit (in a bag) so it was reaching top of bucket with less than 3 gallons of actual liquid. I ended up with 2 gallons. First looks good, 2nd lots of gross lees after 2 days since racking. Plan is to ignore it for 3-4 weeks. Do you think this is going to drop? It looks gross to me. Is that what’s meant “gross lees”? Also weird thing, SG dropped to .988 ish and when I racked the remaining gross lees was still visually bubbling, is that just off gassing?

Gross lees is fruit solids while fine lees is yeast hulls.

The lees in the container may compact, or it may not. I suggest refrigerating it for 2 weeks, which will help with the settling.

I've not made persimmon wine, so I have no idea what to expect. Some fruit drops a LOT of gross lees.

For your next batch, purchase a 10 gallon Rubbermaid Brute -- you want LOTS of room in the fermenter.

The bubbling is off gassing. Depending on the wine that can go on for weeks or even months.

 

[FlamingoEmporium]

A small sieve when racking off gross lees helps. Depending on the fruit, a lot of liquid is aso trapped in with the lees. I separate mine and use various methods to capture more. Sometimes a light pressing, sometimes a trip to the refrigerato, but especially being careful when siphoning.

 

[winemanden]

Sometimes winemakers try to be too economical. It's far better to stop short when you're racking. What's left can be put into a smaller container and left to resettle.
I always try to keep it separate from the main batch. When it clears more, you can always mix it with mineral water or lemonade to make a cooler or spritzer.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think keeping the main batch clean is worth losing the odd bottle.

 

[winemaker81]

Sometimes winemakers try to be too economical. It's far better to stop short when you're racking. What's left can be put into a smaller container and left to resettle.
I always try to keep it separate from the main batch. When it clears more, you can always mix it with mineral water or lemonade to make a cooler or spritzer.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think keeping the main batch clean is worth losing the odd bottle.

It's a difference of opinion, not anyone being wrong. BITD, one guy I knew racked his wines monthly for a year, checked the SG each time, and tossed the contents of the test jar because it was "contaminated". It was impossible to convince him that racking a perfectly clear wine with no sediment was pointless. Him? Yeah, I'd tell him he was wrong if the topic came up, although it's his wine so I wouldn't raise it.

In recent years we have folks on the forum (mostly beginners), wondering why their 23 liter kit barely fills a 19 liter carboy. In each case I can recall, it's overly careful racking.

Also in recent years I've done a fair amount of research on lees and its effects, and decided I was 1) racking unnecessarily and 2) being too careful to eliminate every bit of sediment. This reduced labor as I wasn't racking as often and it reduced risk, as the wine is less exposed to air.

I was still convinced that getting gross lees out early was important, but (again in recent years) folks are doing EM, and I researched how it's done in Burgundy. So I question just how dangerous gross lees are? My current thought is the gross lees are not necessarily dangerous to the wine, but they may introduce flavors and aromas I don't want, so I eliminate gross lees relatively quickly.

I'm similarly of the opinion that fine lees produce no harm, with research in sur lie and bâtonnage backing that up.

As a result my racking schedule has evolved so that my first couple of rackings are dirty, e.g., I don't intentionally drag lees along, but I also don't worry about a bit. It fell once, it will fall again. And I will put wine in a bottle in the fridge to clear -- that can save a surprising amount of wine.

My last racking before bottling, I leave ~1 bottle's worth left in the carboy, so I get 24 or 29 clear bottles, depending on carboy size. That last bottle's worth gets bottled, but I use it first, as it may have a bit a very fine sediment.

 

[Bmd2k1]

It's a difference of opinion, not anyone being wrong. BITD, one guy I knew racked his wines monthly for a year, checked the SG each time, and tossed the contents of the test jar because it was "contaminated". It was impossible to convince him that racking a perfectly clear wine with no sediment was pointless. Him? Yeah, I'd tell him he was wrong if the topic came up, although it's his wine so I wouldn't raise it.

In recent years we have folks on the forum (mostly beginners), wondering why their 23 liter kit barely fills a 19 liter carboy. In each case I can recall, it's overly careful racking.

Also in recent years I've done a fair amount of research on lees and its effects, and decided I was 1) racking unnecessarily and 2) being too careful to eliminate every bit of sediment. This reduced labor as I wasn't racking as often and it reduced risk, as the wine is less exposed to air.

I was still convinced that getting gross lees out early was important, but (again in recent years) folks are doing EM, and I researched how it's done in Burgundy. So I question just how dangerous gross lees are? My current thought is the gross lees are not necessarily dangerous to the wine, but they may introduce flavors and aromas I don't want, so I eliminate gross lees relatively quickly.

I'm similarly of the opinion that fine lees produce no harm, with research in sur lie and bâtonnage backing that up.

As a result my racking schedule has evolved so that my first couple of rackings are dirty, e.g., I don't intentionally drag lees along, but I also don't worry about a bit. It fell once, it will fall again. And I will put wine in a bottle in the fridge to clear -- that can save a surprising amount of wine.

My last racking before bottling, I leave ~1 bottle's worth left in the carboy, so I get 24 or 29 clear bottles, depending on carboy size. That last bottle's worth gets bottled, but I use it first, as it may have a bit a very fine sediment.

How long b4 bottling do you typically do your last racking?

 

[winemaker81]

How long b4 bottling do you typically do your last racking?

4 minutes. I rack the wine, homogenizing if I have multiple containers, add K-meta and glycerin, back sweeten if appropriate, then bottle.


EDIT: If backsweetening, I add sorbate.

 

[Newbie Mel]

4 minutes. I rack the wine, homogenizing if I have multiple containers, add K-meta and glycerin, back sweeten if appropriate, then bottle.


EDIT: If backsweetening, I add sorbate.

If you backseeten and add sorbate can you bottle immediately or do you have to wait to make sure the sorbate has done its job and there is no renewed fermentation?

 

[winemaker81]

If you backseeten and add sorbate can you bottle immediately or do you have to wait to make sure the sorbate has done its job and there is no renewed fermentation?

I don't wait and cannot recall having a problem. If backsweetening, I add the K-meta and sorbate during the rack into the bottling bucket, and may add some sugar at that time. We add small amounts of sugar while stirring well with a drill-mounted stir rod to ensure the sugar is mixed. Taste and repeat until we're satisfied. Give the wine a final stir and start filling bottles.

According to the vendors, sorbate has a relatively short shelf life (12-18 months) unless stored in a sealed package away from light. I buy in small packets and discard it 12 to 15 months after purchase. Finding out your sorbate was too old when corks start popping is not a good idea, so I may be more cautious than others.