1st Wine Kit...Temperature and EM Bulk Aging Q

[ROOSTER_815]

I started my first wine kit 9 days ago (Cab Sauv) and so far everything has gone nearly perfect. I have been lurking on these boards for over a month, consuming as much insight as possible which has really helped out my confidence in not mucking this up. However, as I move onto the next stages I have a few questions and/or recommendations from the community.

Thus Far:
I am doing primary fermentation in my basement where the ambient temperature peaks at 68deg. My yeast kicked off without issue as I engineered a space heater and a box which kept the fermenter at a steady 78-80F. By day 3, the SG was down to 1.030 from 1.095 and a must temp of (79F), by middle of day 4, it was at 1.012 (76F Must), at which point I sealed by container with a gasket lid and airlock to preserve the CO2 as I will be doing a 6-7wk EM. Now, on day 10 the airlock rarely bubbles, unless I slosh the bucket to wet the skins which were still floating on day 4. I plan to slosh the bucket 2x daily until week 3 where the consensus says, the skins should fall by then.

My Next Step Questions are:
1a. Can I turn off the space heater and let the ambient temperature drop to 65-68F? Will this have any ill effects of the EM or subsequent Bulk Aging?
1b. My Concern is letting the yeast cool off too much to fully lower the SG to <0.996. SG was dropping at 0.001 per hour when I capped the bucket 4 days ago, but I don't know how much it slows down near the end with O2 sealed off.

2a. Does EM reduce the time suggested for Bulk Aging as it seemingly gives the wine an older/refined taste sooner?
2b. When Bulk Aging 3+mos, what is the recommended dosing and duration of Oak? I plan on 2pcs Med French Oak Spirals.

3. Anyone have a DeLorean so I can taste my finished wine sooner...the anticipation is hard. I know I have to start several kits and have more than one in rotation at at time so I don't have so much waiting time; but the first is hard

 

[winemaker81]

1a. Can I turn off the space heater and let the ambient temperature drop to 65-68F? Will this have any ill effects of the EM or subsequent Bulk Aging?
1b. My Concern is letting the yeast cool off too much to fully lower the SG to <0.996. SG was dropping at 0.001 per hour when I capped the bucket 4 days ago, but I don't know how much it slows down near the end with O2 sealed off.

I ferment at cellar temperature in the fall, 63-68 F, with no problems. There's no need to ferment a kit at 80 F. Some folks ferment certain red grapes (e.g., Pinot Noir) at a higher temperature to extract more color, but IME it's not a significant issue.

However, a rapid change in temperature may stunt the yeast, so for the duration of the EM I'd keep it steady. Once you've completed the EM, bulk aging at a cooler temperature is better.

There is no guarantee the SG will drop below 0.996. IME a lot of FWK barely get below 1.000. Note that SG is the relative density with respect to pure water -- solids in the wine affect the SG, so lighter wines will typically have a lower FG than a red, although high ABV wines will have lower SG as alcohol is lighter than water.

The TL/DR answer is that the FG will vary.

2a. Does EM reduce the time suggested for Bulk Aging as it seemingly gives the wine an older/refined taste sooner?

Yes and no. I generally look at the overall duration for bottling, modified by the wine itself, e.g., some wines need longer than others. However, to let the wine clear naturally requires at least 3 months of bulk aging, and for heavy reds up to a year, although 6 months is often enough.

2b. When Bulk Aging 3+mos, what is the recommended dosing and duration of Oak? I plan on 2pcs Med French Oak Spirals.

The amount of oak used is based upon your taste. I don't use spirals so I can't comment on that.

However, anecdotal evidence (stuff noticed by numerous people on the forum) leads me to believe that oak adjuncts (spirals, staves, cubes, etc.) are expended at about 3 months, but leaving them in longer seems to make a smoother wine. I find that short term usage of oak tends to make the oak sharper and less blended in as a constituent of the wine.

3. Anyone have a DeLorean so I can taste my finished wine sooner...the anticipation is hard.

Patience, Grasshopper

 

[Rocky]

I started my first wine kit 9 days ago (Cab Sauv) and so far everything has gone nearly perfect. I have been lurking on these boards for over a month, consuming as much insight as possible which has really helped out my confidence in not mucking this up. However, as I move onto the next stages I have a few questions and/or recommendations from the community.

Thus Far:
I am doing primary fermentation in my basement where the ambient temperature peaks at 68deg. My yeast kicked off without issue as I engineered a space heater and a box which kept the fermenter at a steady 78-80F. By day 3, the SG was down to 1.030 from 1.095 and a must temp of (79F), by middle of day 4, it was at 1.012 (76F Must), at which point I sealed by container with a gasket lid and airlock to preserve the CO2 as I will be doing a 6-7wk EM. Now, on day 10 the airlock rarely bubbles, unless I slosh the bucket to wet the skins which were still floating on day 4. I plan to slosh the bucket 2x daily until week 3 where the consensus says, the skins should fall by then.

My Next Step Questions are:
1a. Can I turn off the space heater and let the ambient temperature drop to 65-68F? Will this have any ill effects of the EM or subsequent Bulk Aging?
1b. My Concern is letting the yeast cool off too much to fully lower the SG to <0.996. SG was dropping at 0.001 per hour when I capped the bucket 4 days ago, but I don't know how much it slows down near the end with O2 sealed off.

2a. Does EM reduce the time suggested for Bulk Aging as it seemingly gives the wine an older/refined taste sooner?
2b. When Bulk Aging 3+mos, what is the recommended dosing and duration of Oak? I plan on 2pcs Med French Oak Spirals.

3. Anyone have a DeLorean so I can taste my finished wine sooner...the anticipation is hard. I know I have to start several kits and have more than one in rotation at at time so I don't have so much waiting time; but the first is hard

Firstly, welcome to the forum. You seem to be learning well.

To your questions, and this is only my opinion.

1a and 1b: I don't think turning off the heat will have a detrimental effect. Fermentation is exothermic and your latest wine temperature (76F) is just fine. I don't think the ambient will cause any ill effect. I base this on my cellar which is always between 65-69 F and I have only used a brew belt heater a handful of times to get the fermentation process moving.

2a and 2b: Perhaps better for someone else to answer as I have never tried EM. However, I do bulk age my reds a minimum of 1 year and up to 2 years. I would assume EM would be a part of that period. Also, I have never used spirals. I use American oak, either medium or heavy toast, depending on the wine variety. I usually remove the cubes during the first racking (i.e. after 6 months).

3. I wish!

Questions for you:

What kit are you making, i.e. the manufacturer and line?
What yeast did you used?

 

[ROOSTER_815]

However, anecdotal evidence (stuff noticed by numerous people on the forum) leads me to believe that oak adjuncts (spirals, staves, cubes, etc.) are expended at about 3 months, but leaving them in longer seems to make a smoother wine. I find that short term usage of oak tends to make the oak sharper and less blended in as a constituent of the wine.


Patience, Grasshopper

Thank you. I'll keep this in mind.

Firstly, welcome to the forum. You seem to be learning well.

To your questions, and this is only my opinion.

1a and 1b: I don't think turning off the heat will have a detrimental effect. Fermentation is exothermic and your latest wine temperature (76F) is just fine. I don't think the ambient will cause any ill effect. I base this on my cellar which is always between 65-69 F and I have only used a brew belt heater a handful of times to get the fermentation process moving.

Questions for you:

What kit are you making, i.e. the manufacturer and line?
What yeast did you used?

My goal was to keep ambient temperature above 75F for the duration of Primary for more extraction and then let sit at cellar temperature as the impact to the yeast would be minimal/non-existent. My question was based around the timeframe to ensure the yeast have had enough time to maximize the AF; I am presuming I have crossed that threshold.

I am using the WineXpert Reserve Aussie Cabernet Sauvignon which came with the EC-1118 yeast. I added Cab Sauv skin packs/Seeds from LabelPeelers for added body/tannins. Aside from the addition of the skin packs, I have generally followed their prep instructions.

 

[Christopher Anderson]

You could borrow my DeLorean, but like most EVs, it is in the shop awaiting parts and will cost 4 times more than an ICE machine. Part of the issue is that I had it upgraded and these new upgraded parts are not available until 2046. Unless the dealership can get them sooner, we must wait.
Welcome to WMT. You will learn a lot and will soon be enabling others and spending lots of $$ but you will be happy.

 

[Rocky]

Thank you. I'll keep this in mind.


My goal was to keep ambient temperature above 75F for the duration of Primary for more extraction and then let sit at cellar temperature as the impact to the yeast would be minimal/non-existent. My question was based around the timeframe to ensure the yeast have had enough time to maximize the AF; I am presuming I have crossed that threshold.

I am using the WineXpert Reserve Aussie Cabernet Sauvignon which came with the EC-1118 yeast. I added Cab Sauv skin packs/Seeds from LabelPeelers for added body/tannins. Aside from the addition of the skin packs, I have generally followed their prep instructions.

I am thinking that is going to be a great wine!

 

[ROOSTER_815]

Today was racking day.

Wine spent 38days total in contact with skins…and despite regular punch downs on days 1-10 and swirling after bucket was sealed from day 10-21, the skin packs never fell down to bottom.

I degassed the wine using a combination of a power drill as well as a vacu-vin trick I saw with a carboy bung. After this I added 3oz of Oak Cubes (60/40 French Oak and Murica Oak) as well as 1/4tsp K-Meta.

I noticed the carboy level was low (only up to the top rib) so I added 2 bottles of store bought Australian Cab (same wine type) to reduce the air gap.

This seems a bit much as the headspace is still a bit more than I was shooting for. Is this normal? It did seem like the liquid level dropped inside the bucket from my original fill line. Could this be from the absorption of liquid into the dried skin material that I added?

Good news is everything tastes good so far.

 

[Ohio Bob]

I think you have too much headspace. It should be an inch or two. Get another bottle or 2 of that cab.

Skins float because they still have CO2 inside them.

 

[ROOSTER_815]

I think you have too much headspace. It should be an inch or two. Get another bottle or 2 of that cab.

Skins float because they still have CO2 inside them.

Thanks. I will be adding some more in there later today when I get home; is it within the range of "normal" to have to add just about 2L to top off headspace on a Kit? Trying to get an idea for my next batch which, now that my primary is empty, will be starting soon-ish.

 

[winemaker81]

When making a 23 liter kit, I generally have to top with 1 to 1.5 bottles of wine. Loss of sediment is perfectly normal. If you are bottling on kit schedule, there's no real need to top up, as forum members have reported.

A while back I wrote a post describing measures I take to reduce losses during racking. A couple of key points:

1. Let the first racking or two be "dirty", e.g., don't worry if you suck up a bit of sediment. It fell once, it will fall again. The wine you toss out trying to do a clean racking on a wine that isn't really clear is gone forever.

2. Press those skin packs. A few years back I did a pair of triple batches of 23 liter kits, and for each put the 6 skin packs in a press, grossing over 1.5 liters of wine from each. I admit that getting out a #40 press to press 6 skin packs was serious overkill, but it was an experiment. Without going quite as crazy as I did, let the skin packs drain for 10 minutes, then hand squeeze 'em as best you can.

Note that I don't bottle on kit schedule, minimum time for a white is 4 months, and for a red 6 to 12 (depending on the wine). So after the first few weeks where degassing has slowed down and the likelihood of an overflow from excess CO2 is gone, I top up with a compatible wines.

 

[winemaker81]

I forgot to supply the URL to the post:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/reducing-wine-loss/

 

[ROOSTER_815]

When making a 23 liter kit, I generally have to top with 1 to 1.5 bottles of wine. Loss of sediment is perfectly normal. If you are bottling on kit schedule, there's no real need to top up, as forum members have reported.

A while back I wrote a post describing measures I take to reduce losses during racking. A couple of key points:

1. Let the first racking or two be "dirty", e.g., don't worry if you suck up a bit of sediment. It fell once, it will fall again. The wine you toss out trying to do a clean racking on a wine that isn't really clear is gone forever.

2. Press those skin packs. A few years back I did a pair of triple batches of 23 liter kits, and for each put the 6 skin packs in a press, grossing over 1.5 liters of wine from each. I admit that getting out a #40 press to press 6 skin packs was serious overkill, but it was an experiment. Without going quite as crazy as I did, let the skin packs drain for 10 minutes, then hand squeeze 'em as best you can.

Note that I don't bottle on kit schedule, minimum time for a white is 4 months, and for a red 6 to 12 (depending on the wine). So after the first few weeks where degassing has slowed down and the likelihood of an overflow from excess CO2 is gone, I top up with a compatible wines.

Thanks for the insight; your 1.5 bottles per kit experience certainly makes me feel better for my 2.5 bottles on my first go. I did rack pretty far down in my primary, in my picture above, the little wine left was mostly oak chips and seeds. My racking cane was getting clogged rather easily towards the end.

I spend several minutes with each skin pack squeezing like hell and wringing them like a wet towel. When I was done, I pitched them out in my garden to turn to compost. I'm a decent sized guy, and there weren't any drip/wet marks left behind on the transport baggie, so I know I got them good.

Plan is to bulk age for 6mo while the oak cubes mingle and smooth out, then rest in bottle for another 1-2mo. I'll check to see if I should rack off fine lees sometime next month, and then not rack again until just before bottling. Is it necessary to add K-Meta at each racking OR only every 3mos (i.e. if I rack off fine lees next month should I redose or just wait until the 3mo mark)?

 

[winemaker81]

Plan is to bulk age for 6mo while the oak cubes mingle and smooth out, then rest in bottle for another 1-2mo. I'll check to see if I should rack off fine lees sometime next month, and then not rack again until just before bottling. Is it necessary to add K-Meta at each racking OR only every 3mos (i.e. if I rack off fine lees next month should I redose or just wait until the 3mo mark)?

Don't bother racking off the fine lees. Search on "sur lie" and "battonage". The fine lees doesn't hurt anything, and can only help. I let my heavy reds rest for ~3 weeks after pressing, then pump into barrels, where they set for ~12 months. I don't rack until bottling time.

I add K-meta at each racking and every 3 months during bulk storage. If I needed to rack during bulk aging, I'd try to time it for a 3 month point so I'd only dose it once then.

 

[sour_grapes]

I concur with Bryan's assessment of the expected losses. In addition, many 6-gallon carboys hold a bit more than 6 gallons. I generally get about 31.5 bottles out of my carboy, which is like 6.24 gallons. So right there is 1.5 bottles to be made up.

 

[ROOSTER_815]

Follow-Up Question: Is it normal when topping off the Carboy with a commercial wine of the same varietal, that the wine will begin to "referment" as many low-cost commercial wines are back-sweetened?

Racking Update:
I racked the wine at the beginning of the month (6/4/24) and added the next dose of K-META; meaning it has been aging for 3mo with the Oak Cubes. Initial 3rd party tasting samples (my wife and mom) gave positive feedback prior to racking, although I can still detect a small amount of "wine kit" taste even though I didn't add the Sorbate or Kieselsol -- not complaining, but it is definitely more muted that other kits I have tasted. I rinsed off the oak cubes and added them back to the new carboy for the next 3mo cycle to help "smooth" out the flavors as per the process that has been posted here on these boards.

I was tempted back in March to add tartaric acid to lower the pH a bit, but elected to see how the wine developed before altering it. Well this time around, I tested a small sample and sprinkled some acid and was very pleased with the result. The best advice I read was to measure out what you expect to need for 6gal and cut it in half to start, then creep up on your desired pH -- this paid off in spades. My problem was I knew the target pH from my sample, but I didn't know how much I sprinkled in as my kitchen scale only has whole gram intervals and couldn't measure such a small amount. I was shooting to reduce the pH between 0.1-0.2units and added only 20g Tartaric acid hoping to come up just under my minimum goal of lowering pH by 0.1; however the pH was lowered by 0.19 and I was very pleased. Now, I'll let this new concoction marinate for another 3mo before my next racking and/or bottling.

I did notice that the wine was more fizzy now that just after degassing 3mo ago. I can only assume that the 2.5 bottles of wine I added to top up the carboy began to ferment their residual sugar as my kit was 0.997 after primary fermentation. I didn't bother to degas further as it is just another form of oxidation protection. (I did degas my tasting samples prior to measuring pH).

 

[winemaker81]

Is it normal when topping off the Carboy with a commercial wine of the same varietal, that the wine will begin to "referment" as many low-cost commercial wines are back-sweetened?

I top up with dry wine and have never had a refermentation.

 

[ROOSTER_815]

I top up with dry wine and have never had a refermentation.

I am making a WineExpert Aussie Cabernet, so the budget aussie cabs I know of tend to be a bit sweeter than bone dry; that is what I am assuming was the cause.

My next batch probably will be a domestic variety, so I may have more drier options next time.