ABV results after using non-saccharomyces yeast

[4score]

This is the first year we tried non-saccharomyces yeast. When used to start your fermentation, it's supposed to add much to the "complexity" of the wine. They say it increases roundness and mouthfeel of the resulting wine and also increases flavor intensity. There are different types and brands. We used "Prelude", similar to another brand "Bio-Diva". Both are pure strains of Torulaspora delbrueckii.

Directions say to let Prelude yeast do its thing for about 3 or 4 brix, then add your traditional yeast to finish off the job. In our case, Avante was used, after 3.5 brix drop with the Prelude. There are various opinions on how long to wait. CHR Hansen says 5 brix. So, we may have been too conservative with only waiting 3.5 brix drop.

The theory is that Prelude will use those first few brix to do some unconventional fermentation and it wouldn't be converting as much alcohol as the conventional yeast. I wondered about this part and wanted to know how much less alcohol I would get.

I have two 60-gallon barrels of Cab Franc. One was done with the Prelude yeast + Avante and the other was done with Avante only. After MLF was completed, I sent samples to Lodi Wine Labs. Interestingly enough, the ABV is closer than I thought they would be. The Prelude wine was 13.99% and the non-Prelude was 14.1%.

Also interesting - at crush we were at 25 brix and after settling, it rose to 26. I would have thought the ABV would be higher than 14.1 on the non-Prelude.

Just wanted to share this part of the experience with Prelude. It will be interesting to compare the taste and smell as they age.

 

[Ajmassa]

Great update! Also I was curious how you made out with the color differences. I remember you posting about the non-sac batch appeared substantially lighter.
Was it just from being recently pressed and color eventually leveled out— or did it stay lighter?

 

[4score]

Great update! Also I was curious how you made out with the color differences. I remember you posting about the non-sac batch appeared substantially lighter.
Was it just from being recently pressed and color eventually leveled out— or did it stay lighter?

Thanks. Good question! Lately, I have not noticed any significant color difference but I haven't thought about comparing color in a side by side trial. Maybe I can do that this holiday weekend.

 

[Cap Puncher]

Just wanted to share this part of the experience with Prelude. It will be interesting to compare the taste and smell as they age.

Any updates on the comparison with the Prelude? I am wanting to try on a cab sav this spring. How is the comparison going n aromatics and flavor intensity?

 

[4score]

The two wines have their differences, but it's not stark. It's not that one is better than the other but almost like you have two different vineyards (even those these are both from the same source). I would say the Prelude CF has a rounder, fuller body. A little more complexity and mouthfeel. I must be convinced since Prelude has been a regular purchase to supplement our fermentations going forward.

Here's where I don't have any control samples, but in 2019 we harvested some Amador Cabernet. We wanted to use Prelude, but use it differently from our initial experience. This time we inoculated with Prelude at a Brix of 26.5 and let Prelude go DEEP. We waited until Brix of 7.5 before finishing with the no-H2S champ, Avante. This wine is still in a 60-gal barrel and is probably our best wine to date! Full body and so flavorful. Yes, many other factors like crushing over oak chips, new American Oak barrel, Amador-grown, etc. A lot of things are making this special and I want to believe letting Prelude go deep was a big part.

On a side note, we have also noticed that the fermentations done with Prelude as a start, have slowed the process down. We have very high temps here in the Sierra Foothills and past fermentations have been routinely completing in 4-5 days. These Prelude fermentations are taking nearly twice as long. More contact time and less spike temps too.

 

[Cap Puncher]

The two wines have their differences, but it's not stark. It's not that one is better than the other but almost like you have two different vineyards (even those these are both from the same source). I would say the Prelude CF has a rounder, fuller body. A little more complexity and mouthfeel. I must be convinced since Prelude has been a regular purchase to supplement our fermentations going forward.

Here's where I don't have any control samples, but in 2019 we harvested some Amador Cabernet. We wanted to use Prelude, but use it differently from our initial experience. This time we inoculated with Prelude at a Brix of 26.5 and let Prelude go DEEP. We waited until Brix of 7.5 before finishing with the no-H2S champ, Avante. This wine is still in a 60-gal barrel and is probably our best wine to date! Full body and so flavorful. Yes, many other factors like crushing over oak chips, new American Oak barrel, Amador-grown, etc. A lot of things are making this special and I want to believe letting Prelude go deep was a big part.

On a side note, we have also noticed that the fermentations done with Prelude as a start, have slowed the process down. We have very high temps here in the Sierra Foothills and past fermentations have been routinely completing in 4-5 days. These Prelude fermentations are taking nearly twice as long. More contact time and less spike temps too.

Thanks for the info, I’ll really appreciate it. You are definitely talking me into trying it.

You have me interested in Avante yeast. I saw on their website that it is “moderate”for volatile acid. Have you noticed issues with this? Have you used the Bravo yeast they produce as well?

Lastly can you share how you do your nutrients with the combo of prelude and avante?

 

[Ajmassa]

Thanks for the info, I’ll really appreciate it. You are definitely talking me into trying it.

You have me interested in Avante yeast. I saw on their website that it is “moderate”for volatile acid. Have you noticed issues with this? Have you used the Bravo yeast they produce as well?

Lastly can you share how you do your nutrients with the combo of prelude and avante?

A quick word about Avante. @4score and @NorCal ’s positive reports of their Avante use was what convinced me to give it a shot. Was actually called Andante then. Got a free sample in some online promotion. Cleanest smelling ferment i’ve ever had. Avante then became my default yeast choice.
Only spot to purchase less than a brick was from LodiLabs website (still is i believe), which i found to be a fantastic for winemaking supplies. I was majority morewine.com till then. Huge selection of yeasts, tannins and other additives.

 

[CDrew]

Another source for smaller quantities of Renaissance yeast (limited varieties) is The Beverage People.

I have used Avante as my go-to red wine yeast for 3 years now. Even made a Rose with it. It's just excellent in every way. Standard nutrient protocols, no problems with MLF, just not fussy at all.

 

[Cap Puncher]

Another source for smaller quantities of Renaissance yeast (limited varieties) is The Beverage People.

I have used Avante as my go-to red wine yeast for 3 years now. Even made a Rose with it. It's just excellent in every way. Standard nutrient protocols, no problems with MLF, just not fussy at all.

CDrew, I saw that on other threads that you were going to be using "Bravo". How did that fermentation go? I like the idea of increased glycerol production for mouthfeel. I was thinking of a split fermentation one with Prelude + Avante, the other with Bravo and combine the results in the barrel. Thoughts?

 

[CDrew]

CDrew, I saw that on other threads that you were going to be using "Bravo". How did that fermentation go? I like the idea of increased glycerol production for mouthfeel. I was thinking of a split fermentation one with Prelude + Avante, the other with Bravo and combine the results in the barrel. Thoughts?

Have not used Bravo yet. I did 4 red fermentations this year with Avante (Syrah, Sangiovese, Primitivo, and Barbera) because I have so much of it. I will try Bravo next year though. You generally have to buy 500gm at a time, which is a lot.

I did use another Renaissance yeast this year though-Allegro. It was great in the Sauvignon-Blanc/Semillion blend that I did. Will use again for sure. I think it's the white wine equivalent of Avante. Completely hassle free, clean fermentation. Very happy with it.

With regards to 2 fermentations on different Renaissance yeasts, I just wouldn't bother. Just pick one and go for it.

The only non-Renaissance yeast I used this season was D21 for the Barbera Rose. That was based on my past favorable experience, and the fact that I had 500gm of it-ordered 80 gm from MoreWine and they gave me a 500gm brick instead.

Anyway, I know these will hold over a year no problem so no problem. I did this winter hold over experiment 2 years ago and know it isn't an issue, so I have all the yeast I'll need next year too. I will likely buy a brick of Bravo this summer though when Lodi Wine Labs stocks up.
https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/yeast-storage-for-next-year.70135/

 

[crushday]

On a side note, we have also noticed that the fermentations done with Prelude as a start, have slowed the process down. We have very high temps here in the Sierra Foothills and past fermentations have been routinely completing in 4-5 days. These Prelude fermentations are taking nearly twice as long. More contact time and less spike temps too.

4score, can you and (@NorCal ) give any hypothesis for the temperature conclusions? It’s very interesting to me.

And, where can I buy Prelude? I searched Lodi but nothing came up. When I search “non-saccharomyces” a bunch of choices from Hansen come up: Rhythm, Melody, Harmony, Concerto (Hansen must play the viola…lol) and others listed are from Renaissance.

 

[NorCal]

The must temperature is driven by the activity and growth of the yeast. My theory is the non-sac yeast is less voracious than the sac yeast and when you add in the sac yeast mid stream, with some of the nutrient and an alcoholic environment, it takes longer for the sac yeast to get rolling and never hits that day 3 peak, like it typically does in a virgin environment.