acid effects via Invert sugar?

[AXIOM]

Hello Brothers in wine ... The Hydrolysis lots of folks use to create their Invert sugar is heat energy coupled with Acidic energy (eq. citric acid) ... Lots of folks use Invertase instead of acid...But when using citric acid instead of Invertase , I am wondering if this poses an acidity problem for the wine "must"... I have searched high and low on various chemistry sites, and brewing web sites and I can't seem to find an answer..... Most recipes call for a considerable amount of citric acid to be used in the creation of Invert Sugar.... Does this citric acid used in creating Invert sugar get chemically broken down into different chemicals or does it stay intact inside of the invert sugar? I know that citric acid gets broken down at high temperatures but the temperatures have to be much higher than what is used in creating Invert sugar. I am wondering, because if it stays intact as a base acid then this would mean that when the invert sugar gets added to the wine "must" then certain amounts of citric acid would also get added to the wine "must". This is not something I would like.... I suppose I could do a bunch of easy tests and examine the result, but I am LAZY, and besides I have you people to provide knowledge

I realize a person can do "partial" invert sugar by not using any acids or enzymes but I am NOT interested in "partial" invert sugar....

 

[Ajmassa]

I think the citric acid portion is so minimal that it really wouldn’t make a difference. The recipe I’ve known and used is for 4 cups of sugar to 2 cups of water simple syrup with only 1/4 tsp of citric acid added
It’s also said that it doesn’t have to be citric. Tartaric can be used as well. Even lemon juice. It’s just a tiny amount to help break that bond along with heat

 

[AXIOM]

I think the citric acid portion is so minimal that it really wouldn’t make a difference. The recipe I’ve known and used is for 4 cups of sugar to 2 cups of water simple syrup with only 1/4 tsp of citric acid added
It’s also said that it doesn’t have to be citric. Tartaric can be used as well. Even lemon juice. It’s just a tiny amount to help break that bond along with heat

Thanks ... yeah I am aware that other acids can be used.... I am just wondering if the all of the acid makes it into the must or if it gets converted.... For some reason I can't seem to find anything on the subject.... The only thing I have been able to find was on a chemistry web site and it stated that the citric acid will break down when exposed to high temperatures while inside of sugar-water. The only problem is that the temperatures they cited are FAR above anything we would ever use for inverting sugar. Well, like you say, it isn't very much acid and so I suppose there is no need to worry about it. A person could always use a different acid other than citric as well.... But, I am curious about it more than anything I suppose.. Thanks for the reply

 

[sour_grapes]

I do not believe that the acid is broken down by the process. The acid is usually described as a catalyst for the inversion reaction, which implies that it is not consumed. As AJ said, the amount of acid you need to promote the inversion is negligible (1:1000 by weight).

 

[Ajmassa]

It’s a good question. With the amount used I’m not even sure our testing capabilities would even detect the additional acid even if it remained.
At an extreme sugar addition to raise 6gal of wine from 1.070 to 1.100 would require about 4.7lbs of sugar. Equivalent in simple syrup would be less than 3/4 tsp acid used. So any changes to TA would be minuscule .....
I think. Just kinda spitballing here

 

[GreginND]

Yes, the acid is just a catalyst and is not consumed.

A larger question is what are you using invert sugar for? I have never seen a need to bother. Sucrose hydrolyzed just fine in wine/must which is already an acidic environment.

 

[AXIOM]

I do not believe that the acid is broken down by the process. The acid is usually described as a catalyst for the inversion reaction, which implies that it is not consumed. As AJ said, the amount of acid you need to promote the inversion is negligible (1:1000 by weight).

yeah sort of what I have been assuming...

 

[AXIOM]

Yes, the acid is just a catalyst and is not consumed.

A larger question is what are you using invert sugar for? I have never seen a need to bother. Sucrose hydrolyzed just fine in wine/must which is already an acidic environment.

From what I am understanding, you only get partial invert sugar via the acids in wine "must" acting on sucrose and if a person wants a complete invert sugar then kinetic energy (heat) is also required. Some wine makers love to use complete invert sugar in their yeast starters as well as some of their wine musts ....

 

[1d10t]

Beer makers use corn sugar (dextrose?) to minimize off flavors. Still for large Belgian style beers I make invert sugar in a pressure cooker. I've always used a small amount of acid to a pound of sugar. Less than a 1/4 teaspoon. I should have kept notes. Last time I used my pH meter to make sure I was getting a good drop. I also use a pressure cooker to invert my sugar. I've read that time and temp will eventually convert even without the pH drop so I was just adding enough to help out. I'm confident it worked though because I could taste the difference.

 

[AXIOM]

Beer makers use corn sugar (dextrose?) to minimize off flavors. Still for large Belgian style beers I make invert sugar in a pressure cooker. I've always used a small amount of acid to a pound of sugar. Less than a 1/4 teaspoon. I should have kept notes. Last time I used my pH meter to make sure I was getting a good drop. I also use a pressure cooker to invert my sugar. I've read that time and temp will eventually convert even without the pH drop so I was just adding enough to help out. I'm confident it worked though because I could taste the difference.

Thanks ... I don't brew beer but the info you provided is sort of what I have been assuming .... Thanks for the info as it helps much

 

[slide95]

Much commercial yeast has been bred to adequately produce the enzyme necessary to invert the sucrose to glucose and fructose. Such yeast will actually perform better with sucrose solution than invert sugar. There are yeasts that are bred for improved efficiency for direct fermentation of fructose, and but these are not ideal for invert sugar, since you will get depletion of one sugar over the other. This problem of getting stuck on excess glucose can even occur sometimes with yeast that prefer sucrose. So, there is not much advantage to inverting the sugar yourself unless it is called for because of a special yeast you want to use.

 

[garymc]

I frequently use inverted sugar syrup to backsweeten my wines. I make muscadine, elderberry, and aronia wines and some blends of those 3. Of the 3, muscadines are acidic. But some of the acidity of the muscadines gets reduced during the winemaking process using 71B yeast. As near as I can tell, any added acidity brings the wine back to tasting more like muscadines, so that would be ok with me.