Acid overdose...tartaric that is.

[Johnd]

As thick as pea soup.

This is a fairly succinct, short description of pH and TA.

 

[pgentile]

This is a fairly succinct, short description of pH and TA.

Thnx

 

[NorCal]

Ok, so I’m ordering 5 pounds of tartaric acid...yup, 5 pounds. I adjusted my musts .2 pH in the past, so I may need to do .3-.35 to get it down to 3.65. Not sure I have the guts to do it on a macro bin worth of fruit, but I should have the tools to do it.

 

[NorCal]

Ok, so I’m ordering 5 pounds of tartaric acid...yup, 5 pounds. I adjusted my musts .2 pH in the past, so I may need to do .3-.35 to get it down to 3.65. Not sure I have the guts to do it on a macro bin worth of fruit, but I should have the tools to do it.

 

[Ajmassa]

I listened to this episode a while back (and many other from this podcast) and found it so helpful that listened to it twice in its entirety. Maybe I’ll do another refresher. It was nice to hear winemakers publicly talk about their technique - which is rare, opening themselves to critics.
It really helped me come to my current mindset to focus on ph and not TA pre ferment. Or at minimum: to not sacrifice a good ph to adjust TA. (Although Movementose ratio seems more unpredictable before AF than post in my experience so far)
Spring batch I was all set to add tartaric to the must and bring it down to that 3.62 range but grapes came in lower so no adjusting was needed.
I’ll definitely be adjusting down if fall grapes come in extra high again. If excess just drops out like you said, and this podcast Napa winemaker is clearly confident in his “3.62ph no exceptions” type mentality— then I’m all in. With that high Brix I’d be excited at the opportunity to add enough acid, and tannin to go after a big bold wine. Would be a lot to add for lower Brix , (Ill probably cheat my Brix up too, just keep it a secret) And I imagine this situation arises a whole lot in California and more routine than we think. (Minus my secret sugar bump if needed)
I know the French have scoffed at Napa for all the added acid. But to make the best wine they can from those grapes it’s a necessary evil it seems. No different than chaptalization to high acid grapes in France.
If I get my grapes first and they have extra high ph- I’ll be sure to let you know how it goes.

 

[4score]

Great discussion.

I think some "lessons learned" with regards to acid adds in the pre-fermentation stage - Allow the must to settle (12-24 hours), add acid (somewhat less than you calculate needing), allow the must to settle more (12 hours), measure, add more acid, settle, measure, etc.

 

[Ajmassa]

Great discussion.

I think some "lessons learned" with regards to acid adds in the pre-fermentation stage - Allow the must to settle (12-24 hours), add acid (somewhat less than you calculate needing), allow the must to settle more (12 hours), measure, add more acid, settle, measure, etc.

And that’s one of my bugaboos— all the time needed for multiple adjusting. I’m pretty much a one man band with all this. And prolonging things at the crush stage is not something I’d say is ideal- especially for a “so2 minimalist” like myself. Tho I have gone through enough trial and error to longer skip it all together - but only dosing to get 20-25ppm.
How long do you think it would take for any wild yeast to start showing activity if dosed to 20ppm? Waiting 24hrs, then another 12, and another 12 if needed makes me nervous.

 

[4score]

And that’s one of my bugaboos— all the time needed for multiple adjusting. I’m pretty much a one man band with all this. And prolonging things at the crush stage is not something I’d say is ideal- especially for a “so2 minimalist” like myself. Tho I have gone through enough trial and error to longer skip it all together - but only dosing to get 20-25ppm.
How long do you think it would take for any wild yeast to start showing activity if dosed to 20ppm? Waiting 24hrs, then another 12, and another 12 if needed makes me nervous.

Yeah, that's the risk. I would slightly raise the SO2 (30-50) to allow for carefully adding the correct dosing of tartaric.

 

[Venatorscribe]

I’m reticent to add any acid post fermentation. I’ve done it, but it didn’t seem to achieve what I was looking for; pH didn’t drop much, but the acid came in really strong to the taste.

Likewise. I made significant adjustments for very little change in pH. However the resultant taste was strongly acidic.

 

[Ajmassa]

Yeah, that's the risk. I would slightly raise the SO2 (30-50) to allow for carefully adding the correct dosing of tartaric.

Lots to account for, and I like an early co-innoc so gotta tip-toe that so2 line. Plus other factors .... like life! Fruit pickup Sat morning and need yeast pitched by Sunday night. Probably could cut the ‘12 hour’ time in half and be cool.
So assuming grapes come in at 3.9-4.0 ph again, and adjusted FULLY to 3.6 - what are the odds it clocks in with solid numbers across the board after AF/MLF? High Brix goes fully dry — ph stays put— and TA falls nicely into place? We’ll see. Though it’s an easy choice after needing major post AF adjusting last fall. HUGE hassle!

 

[Johnd]

Lots to account for, and I like an early co-innoc so gotta tip-toe that so2 line. Plus other factors .... like life! Fruit pickup Sat morning and need yeast pitched by Sunday night. Probably could cut the ‘12 hour’ time in half and be cool.
So assuming grapes come in at 3.9-4.0 ph again, and adjusted FULLY to 3.6 - what are the odds it clocks in with solid numbers across the board after AF/MLF? High Brix goes fully dry — ph stays put— and TA falls nicely into place? We’ll see. Though it’s an easy choice after needing major post AF adjusting last fall. HUGE hassle!

You already know I’m a pH nut, here is my high pH / must theory:

When you need to adjust pH down by adding tartaric to must, and you run your calculations based upon the expected final liquid volume in your fermenter, half of the dose always seems to do the job. Why? Because so much of your liquid is still tied up in the pulp and skins, so the acid you added is acting upon a smaller volume, dropping the pH with less than it figures.

So you get your must adjusted to 3.6, pitch your yeast and it goes to work as planned. Slowly, the fermentation process breaks down the skins and pulp, slowly but surely releasing more liquid into the wine, liquid with the original high pH. What happens? Your pH starts to creep back up. I fight this every year, but don't have the kahunas to overadjust the pH, knowing it will work its way back up.

Some good enzyme time prior to pitching, which breaks a lot of liquid free, seems to help minimize the effect, but I’ve not settled my mind yet on the right solution.

 

[NorCal]

Slowly, the fermentation process breaks down the skins and pulp, slowly but surely releasing more liquid into the wine, liquid with the original high pH. What happens? Your pH starts to creep back up.

Good point.

 

[Venatorscribe]

Thanks for the replies. I found the podcast I was referring to. Skip to 7 minutes. A must listen to for high pH winemakers.
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...+Complete.mp3/original/pH+and+TA+Complete.mp3

Excellent podcast - thanks for putting up the reference. I like it when someone talks about shelving TA and just using pH. I've been doing that for a year now. It certainly free's up your thinking.