Acidity

[SonValley]

How can control the acidity?
Are the figure 3.5 is the appropriate number for the acidity of the wine?

 

[JohnT]

Well, It all depends on the wine, but IMHO 3.5 is a bit too high of a PH (I normally shoot for 3.4 on my reds). I would add a bit more acid.

 

[SonValley]

I want a way to mitigate the high acidity of wine?
Sometimes rising level of acidity in the wine (white) Why?

 

[Calamity Cellars]

Don't take the bait on pH and TA numbers. Taste is king. Who cares what someone else likes or the numbers on their wines. Each wine from each vineyard is different. Instead of using numbers in your decision making try using them as a record of what happened and look for patterns if you continue to make wines from the same source.

Also, TA is the measure of acidity and pH is the measure of the strength of those acids. In your post you ask how to control acidity but then give a pH value which is a measure of the strength of an unknown amount of acid. You did not mention how it tasted to you? In fact, you didn't mention if it was a red wine or a white wine which will tend to have vastly different ta & pH levels.

Did I ask how it tastes? LOL Taste is king. Don't force a wine into a set of numbers. My number 1 rule of winemaking is, "if in doubt or if you don't know THEN DON'T".

 

[JohnT]

CC, The maintenance of proper PH levels in wine is important for stability and the fight against microbes and spoilage.

I would never advise someone to go with their tastebuds. This is definitely not an accurate measure by any means and is far too important to get wrong.

Son Valley, For about $8 you can get yourself an acid test kit. This measures the total weight of acid in your wine (usually in grams per liter of wine). These acid test kits are very easy to use.

The level you need to shoot for is between .60 and .70 for reds and .65 and .75 for whites. In most cases, you will need to raise the acid.

Son Valley, I strongly recommend that you test and maintain proper acid levels.

 

[Turock]

Yes, I agree. There's no set PH for a wine,altho there are certain wines we make that we have a set PH where we want the wine to be because we've made it thousands of times and know that if we get the PH too high, it will taste like dishwater. And fruit wines need a set PH where the flavor will be better and it's easier to balance the acids with sugar. It really depends on what you're talking about.

 

[Boatboy24]

Like most things with winemaking, it is as much art as science. But both play a part. You want certain wines to be within certain ranges, but there can be a wide variety of taste perception in those ranges - particularly as other aspects of the wine change (residual sugar, and ABV for example). Provided your wine is within reasonable pH/TA ranges, I see no issues with going by taste.

Regarding the original question, I think we need more information to properly answer. What kind of wine is this? Do you plan on putting it through MLF? Cold stabilization? Where are your pH and TA now?

 

[salcoco]

start the fermentation with the proper numbers, get them within range before you bottle, but let taste be your final decision before you bottle. What good is a properly measured and accurate numbers for a wine if the wine taste is not what you like?

 

[JohnT]

start the fermentation with the proper numbers, get them within range before you bottle, but let taste be your final decision before you bottle. What good is a properly measured and accurate numbers for a wine if the wine taste is not what you like?

What good is 20 cases of wine that you find tastes good, but spoils after 6 months?

 

[Calamity Cellars]

CC, The maintenance of proper PH levels in wine is important for stability and the fight against microbes and spoilage.

I would never advise someone to go with their tastebuds. This is definitely not an accurate measure by any means and is far too important to get wrong.

So your advice would be to add acid to lower pH from 3.5 to 3.4 irregardless of taste in a red wine? Seriously? In my mind that is the equivalent of advising someone to add a high level of SO2 to protect the wine even if it makes the wine stink of sulfur. Taste is king. Unless you are Chateau St Michelle making millions of gallons a year of 14 Hands selling to a McDonalds market that demands consistency year after year then you have to follow the fruit where it leads. pH's will vary year to year. TA's will vary year to year. How a wine clears will vary year to year. mlf will go well some years and not others. Great winemakers use TA and pH as indicators as to where a wine is and could go but the goal is to make wines that we love. We never sit down to a beautiful glass and say,"hmmm, the pH on this is just perfect."

 

[Calamity Cellars]

What good is 20 cases of wine that you find tastes good, but spoils after 6 months?

Wines with a pH of 3.5 don't spoil in a couple of years. Wines with a pH of 4.1 and no acid MAY deteriorate but even then it can be mitigated and is not an absolute.

 

[Runningwolf]

Numbers are a very critical part of your record keeping and for reference. Ph is critical for determining S02 amounts and is far more important than a TA number.
You can make some ta adjustments before fermentation if you deem it necessary. I always adjust ta by taste doing bench trials. I will either blend in another wine to compliment it or add sugar to taste for balance.

 

[JohnT]

Numbers are a very critical part of your record keeping and for reference. Ph is critical for determining S02 amounts and is far more important than a TA number.
You can make some ta adjustments before fermentation if you deem it necessary. I always adjust ta by taste doing bench trials. I will either blend in another wine to compliment it or add sugar to taste for balance.

RW,

I hear you and agree, but CC is advising that this beginner (I assume a beginner) should forego PH and TA numbers and operate solely on taste. I still think that this is a bad methodology and dangerous...

Don't take the bait on pH and TA numbers. Taste is king. Who cares what someone else likes or the numbers on their wines. Each wine from each vineyard is different. Instead of using numbers in your decision making try using them as a record of what happened and look for patterns if you continue to make wines from the same source.

 

[whackfol]

I support Calamity's observation and suggestion to the original post.
The poster asked whether he should adjust a 3.5 pH wine with no reason other than to hit some target pH. Calamity suggests adjusting to taste and not to some "target." As was mentioned, winemaking is more art than science. Tasting and adjusting is the art.
Knowing your pH is a different question than adjusting to a pH. You may have a high pH and low abv wine that requires significant free SO2 or vice versa. My question is if the wine is not pleasing, who cares that you can protect it from the wine gremlins? Bottling is an expensive proposition. Would you waste the glass, cork, capsule, label and time if you did not like it?

 

[Calamity Cellars]

RW,

I hear you and agree, but CC is advising that this beginner (I assume a beginner) should forego PH and TA numbers and operate solely on taste. I still think that this is a bad methodology and dangerous...

So you would have a beginner force his wine into your set of numbers and not even ask him how it tastes? THAT is bad methodology and dangerous. Kind of like telling a beginning chef to add a predetermined amount of salt to a meal without tasting it.

 

[JohnT]

25 years of winemaking, and hundredw of awards, and i have ne er had a batch of wine taste bad because i paid attention to the numbers. you say that the tounge is better than ta or a ph meter? well, we will have to agree to disagree. good luck with that....

 

[Runningwolf]

Folks I am enjoying this thread and it is what this forum is about. You both are very passionate about the way you achieve the same goal taking two different avenues. The goal of making great wine you both like along with what others like. I have little doubt if you tasted each others wine you wouldn't like them. I am totally amazed at the number of wineries that I talk to that don't test for S02 or ta, nor do the have the equipment or know how to do so. I am only testing ta twice. Once when I'm taking samples of grapes from the vineyards and again after pressing. Thats it!

I check ph and S02 every time I touch the wine to see if any adjustments need to be made in S02. I keep records of everything right from the purchase and which vineyard the grape came from till it's bottled or sold as bulk juice or wine. A lot wineries adjust acid in the beginning by adding water, others use chemicals. I never add any water! As I stated before my preference is to adjust strictly by taste.

 

[Calamity Cellars]

25 years of winemaking, and hundredw of awards, and i have ne er had a batch of wine taste bad because i paid attention to the numbers. you say that the tounge is better than ta or a ph meter? well, we will have to agree to disagree. good luck with that....

With a certificate in enology from Washington State University and a commercial winery that sells out of everything we make at $35 a bottle I will say that you are looking to argue with me just because you need to be right when, unfortunately, you are not giving good advice and are oblivious to the actual point I am making.

I did not say tasting is a 100% replacement for a pH meter or TA tests.

I did not say that there is no need for a knowing your pH or TA.

I did not say that you should never adjust pH and TA.

What I did say was forcing a wine into a window of 'correct' pH and TA numbers without considering taste as the primary factor in the adjustment decision is bad winemaking advice.

Since you chose to tout your awards I will do the same to illustrate my point. My 2010 Cabernet Sauvignon won a double gold at the Seattle Wine Awards last year. In fact, all the wines I entered won medals. This is a competition that is judged by sommeliers and wine industry giants from all over the United States and is considered the premier competition in Washington State. The Cabernet Sauvignon was bottled with a pH of 3.67. Are you saying that I should have gone against some of the best tongues in the country and add tartaric to bring that pH down to 3.4?

 

[JohnT]

Thanks for clearing that up.

When I read your initial post, I interpreted it as if you were telling a beginner to forget about PH and TA. My bad if that is not what you were saying.