Advice for a new Winemaker using 3 juice kits - Noirette, Marquette, and Cayuga White

[maureengo2]

Hi Folks,
We started making wine at the end of December 2022. We bought 3 carboys of juices from Double A Vineyards. We purchased the 3 varieties of juices that correlated with the varieties that are growing most vigorously here on our small certified-organic farm to get some experience with those juices. We bought Noirette, Marquette, and Cayuga White and made all within about the period of a month. We followed all instructions in the brochure and tested for specific gravity, color, and nose once a week until the specific gravity was at 1. That took @ 3 months probably because the Flower shop was cold. Then we racked the wines into clean carboys and it's been sitting in the dark ever since.

On July 20th a Farmland Trust is hosting a tour here and we are going to be serving samples of our wines.

So, the wines will be just 6 months old. This coming Sunday I have the owner of a fine restaurant who also buys all their wine coming to taste our 3 wines with us to educate up about tasting notes. This is so that I and the farmhands have talking points as we serve samples.

I have some questions.

1. Is 6 months too early to taste the wine? Should it be at least 8 months old?

2. What were the crystals that were in the two red juices when we first poured them into our carboys through a filter to begin the fermentation process? I removed the crystals from the Noirette which had the heaviest concentration and left most in the Marquette to be part of the fermentation process. (I called Double A but the woman I spoke to couldn't explain or advise.)

3. What would you consider a proper sample size at an event? Two ounces? Four ounces? Six ounces? There will be @ 100 people here.

Any other tips for us?
Many thanks in advance!

 

[ibglowin]

It might be a little early for the reds to show well especially if these have been in a carboy the whole time. The white may be more ready as whites are usually quicker to come around. I would taste them now and see what you think personally before hand.

The crystals are more than likely just tartaric acid that fell out over time and is also a normal thing for a juice with high amounts of acid like these more than likely have plus you stored them in a cool environment which also promotes the formation of these "wine diamonds". They should be left behind in a racking of the wine.

Have you been topping the wines up with Sulfite additions along the way?

Unless you want to get rid of all that wine in one fell swoop I would only allow an ounce or so per guest of each. And remember you will probably have to rack this wine down to a smaller container if you do say pour off a gallon or so as that headspace will just oxidize whats left in no time flat.

Quite often these wines are also back-sweetened because they can have a low pH (high acid) and are tart to taste without some amount of sweetness to offset the tart.

I would definitely taste before hand or you may be in for a huge surprise and a lot of folks looking for a spit bucket.

 

[maureengo2]

It might be a little early for the reds to show well especially if these have been in a carboy the whole time. The white may be more ready as whites are usually quicker to come around. I would taste them now and see what you think personally before hand.

The crystals are more than likely just tartaric acid that fell out over time and is also a normal thing for a juice with high amounts of acid like these more than likely have plus you stored them in a cool environment which also promotes the formation of these "wine diamonds". They should be left behind in a racking of the wine.

Have you been topping the wines up with Sulfite additions along the way?

Unless you want to get rid of all that wine in one fell swoop I would only allow an ounce or so per guest of each. And remember you will probably have to rack this wine down to a smaller container if you do say pour off a gallon or so as that headspace will just oxidize whats left in no time flat.

Quite often these wines are also back-sweetened because they can have a low pH (high acid) and are tart to taste without some amount of sweetness to offset the tart.

I would definitely taste before hand or you may be in for a huge surprise and a lot of folks looking for a spit bucket.

Thank you for those insights! We'll taste it ourselves tomorrow. If I have to back sweeten - what and how much should I use/start with?

 

[ChuckD]

If you are determined to use them for the event you should taste and adjust as best you can. For back sweetening prepare a simple syrup and set up a bench trial… for example, draw several 100ml samples and add 1/4t to the first, 1/2t to the next etc. to see what tastes best. I would also try a blend of the reds. You could also try adding finishing tannins and/or glycerin for mouthfeel.

If you do back sweeten you need to add sorbate or you will probably kick off fermentation again.

If you are going to serve from the bottle then get them in the bottle quickly. The alternative is to keep it in bulk and draw off as much as you need prior to the event.

And don’t forget k-meta and keeping things topped up until using it or bottling.

 

[Vern]

My experience only, Marquette takes 18 months to drink. I opened a 2017 Marquette last week , it really improved in the last 2 years. Just my opinion but its
the difference between drinkable and really good.

 

[sour_grapes]

If you do give a tasting, be sure to manage expectations. Don't call it finished wine -- say that you are giving them a sample of a YOUNG wine so that they have a chance to learn about what wine tastes like at this stage in its development.

 

[maureengo2]

If you do give a tasting, be sure to manage expectations. Don't call it finished wine -- say that you are giving them a sample of a YOUNG wine so that they have a chance to learn about what wine tastes like at this stage in its development.

Thank you for that good advice!

 

[maureengo2]

My experience only, Marquette takes 18 months to drink. I opened a 2017 Marquette last week , it really improved in the last 2 years. Just my opinion but its
the difference between drinkable and really good.

This is good to know.

 

[maureengo2]

My experience only, Marquette takes 18 months to drink. I opened a 2017 Marquette last week , it really improved in the last 2 years. Just my opinion but its
the difference between drinkable and really good.

Once it was 18 months old, did you still have to back-sweeten it?

 

[maureengo2]

If you are determined to use them for the event you should taste and adjust as best you can. For back sweetening prepare a simple syrup and set up a bench trial… for example, draw several 100ml samples and add 1/4t to the first, 1/2t to the next etc. to see what tastes best. I would also try a blend of the reds. You could also try adding finishing tannins and/or glycerin for mouthfeel.

If you do back sweeten you need to add sorbate or you will probably kick off fermentation again.

If you are going to serve from the bottle then get them in the bottle quickly. The alternative is to keep it in bulk and draw off as much as you need prior to the event.

And don’t forget k-meta and keeping things topped up until using it or bottling.

What is the K-meta used for?

 

[maureengo2]

Sorry I hit reply too quickly. I meant to ask was K-meta Campden tablets - I add that 1 week before I bottle it? So if I add it to the Marquette & Noirette carboys today- can we still have a small tasting on Sunday?

 

[maureengo2]

Thank you for those insights! We'll taste it ourselves tomorrow. If I have to back sweeten - what and how much should I use/start with?

I have not been topping the wines up with Sulfite additions along the way - should I do that now? Two days to first tasting with the owner of a restaurant. Two weeks till tasting by a group. Do I have time to add now?

 

[maureengo2]

It might be a little early for the reds to show well especially if these have been in a carboy the whole time. The white may be more ready as whites are usually quicker to come around. I would taste them now and see what you think personally before hand.

The crystals are more than likely just tartaric acid that fell out over time and is also a normal thing for a juice with high amounts of acid like these more than likely have plus you stored them in a cool environment which also promotes the formation of these "wine diamonds". They should be left behind in a racking of the wine.

Have you been topping the wines up with Sulfite additions along the way?

Unless you want to get rid of all that wine in one fell swoop I would only allow an ounce or so per guest of each. And remember you will probably have to rack this wine down to a smaller container if you do say pour off a gallon or so as that headspace will just oxidize whats left in no time flat.

Quite often these wines are also back-sweetened because they can have a low pH (high acid) and are tart to taste without some amount of sweetness to offset the tart.

I would definitely taste before hand or you may be in for a huge surprise and a lot of folks looking for a spit bucket.

I will be pouring off a gallon of each for the event. In order to prevent oxidization of what's should I put the remainder in smaller containers so there's no headspace? And then seal it?

 

[Ohio Bob]

Do not add it now, you probably will be able to taste it for days/weeks. Will taste like burnt match.

Potassium metabisulfite is used to get SO2 into the wine. It binds with contaminants and helps protect the wine for longer shelf life’s. It stays active for approximately 3 months, so rackings are typically every 3 months. Some people stretch that time out with no bad effects but that alone is not proof the SO2 is still sufficient to protect the wine.

Pretty ambitious to serve to people. I wish you luck. Please taste ahead of time so you can come up with plan B if it’s warranted. I suspect the wine will taste young, might have a bit of fizz from CO2.

 

[maureengo2]

Do not add it now, you probably will be able to taste it for days/weeks. Will taste like burnt match.

Potassium metabisulfite is used to get SO2 into the wine. It binds with contaminants and helps protect the wine for longer shelf life’s. It stays active for approximately 3 months, so rackings are typically every 3 months. Some people stretch that time out with no bad effects but that alone is not proof the SO2 is still sufficient to protect the wine.

Pretty ambitious to serve to people. I wish you luck. Please taste ahead of time so you can come up with plan B if it’s warranted. I suspect the wine will taste young, might have a bit of fizz from CO2.

Pretty ambitious is a polite way of saying pretty foolish! ) We've racked it once in the 6 months so it's due to be racked again. Perhaps the Cayuga White will be the only tastable one. Am I understanding correctly that if the reds are not drinkable my next step after racking again is to back sweeten and then to add Campden tablets? Do I seal the carboys or leave the airlocks on? (I have so many questions, please forgive me. I honestly feel like a kindergartner trying her first coloring book and yet I know that doing is the best way to learn.)

 

[Ohio Bob]

@winemaker81 has links to wine making manuals underneath his signature. Well worth checking out.

If the reds are not drinkable because they are high acid, low sugar? This might be making things worse but you might try adding sugar to the wine you intend to serve. Note it might be on the order of 1 tsp per gallon, not 1 cup per gallon, so it’s a fine adjustment. Note also it can go too far and the wine will taste sweet. If you decide on this approach add sugar in tiny increments. Preferably split your wine into 2 jugs, sweeten one and compare against the other. If you go too far you just combine the two to get back to a reduced sweetness.

Wine intended for bulk aging should get 1/4 tsp Kmeta per 5 gallons of wine. Then an airlock, never totally sealed as any renewed fermentation or CO2 off gassing can pop the cork, so to speak. If you don’t have enough wine to keep the carboy totally topped off, use a similar store bought wine to top off. Minimizing the air in the headspace is the goal.

 

[Jovimaple]

If you decide to backsweeten wine that has been aging less than 9 months or so, in addition to the Kmeta (powder form or campden tablets of which the potassium version is recommended over the sodium version to avoid adding a salty taste), you will need potassium sorbate, which is birth control for the yeast and prevents them from budding. The one-two punch of the Kmeta and the sorbate works to ensure that any remaining yeastie beasties don't start chowing down the sugar added to backsweeten, causing fermentation to restart.

Once you get to around 9 months or more of aging, the yeast should all be dead and the sorbate is no longer needed. If you do use sorbate, pay attention to the "use by" date on the package - it has a limited shelf life of a year or so.

As Bob said, at this point you should taste the wine and add sugar only to the samples, if you think that improves the taste for your tasting session. Also, if it seems fizzy, you can try shaking the sample jugs a bit to degas them some more.

 

[maureengo2]

If you decide to backsweeten wine that has been aging less than 9 months or so, in addition to the Kmeta (powder form or campden tablets of which the potassium version is recommended over the sodium version to avoid adding a salty taste), you will need potassium sorbate, which is birth control for the yeast and prevents them from budding. The one-two punch of the Kmeta and the sorbate works to ensure that any remaining yeastie beasties don't start chowing down the sugar added to backsweeten, causing fermentation to restart.

Once you get to around 9 months or more of aging, the yeast should all be dead and the sorbate is no longer needed. If you do use sorbate, pay attention to the "use by" date on the package - it has a limited shelf life of a year or so.

As Bob said, at this point you should taste the wine and add sugar only to the samples, if you think that improves the taste for your tasting session. Also, if it seems fizzy, you can try shaking the sample jugs a bit to degas them some more.

I didn;t notice that

@winemaker81 has links to wine making manuals underneath his signature. Well worth checking out.

If the reds are not drinkable because they are high acid, low sugar? This might be making things worse but you might try adding sugar to the wine you intend to serve. Note it might be on the order of 1 tsp per gallon, not 1 cup per gallon, so it’s a fine adjustment. Note also it can go too far and the wine will taste sweet. If you decide on this approach add sugar in tiny increments. Preferably split your wine into 2 jugs, sweeten one and compare against the other. If you go too far you just combine the two to get back to a reduced sweetness.

Wine intended for bulk aging should get 1/4 tsp Kmeta per 5 gallons of wine. Then an airlock, never totally sealed as any renewed fermentation or CO2 off gassing can pop the cork, so to speak. If you don’t have enough wine to keep the carboy totally topped off, use a similar store bought wine to top off. Minimizing the air in the headspace is the goal.

I didn't notice the links to the wine-making manuals. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

[maureengo2]

I didn;t notice that

I didn't notice the links to the wine-making manuals. Thank you for pointing that out.

If I use a similar

@winemaker81 has links to wine making manuals underneath his signature. Well worth checking out.

If the reds are not drinkable because they are high acid, low sugar? This might be making things worse but you might try adding sugar to the wine you intend to serve. Note it might be on the order of 1 tsp per gallon, not 1 cup per gallon, so it’s a fine adjustment. Note also it can go too far and the wine will taste sweet. If you decide on this approach add sugar in tiny increments. Preferably split your wine into 2 jugs, sweeten one and compare against the other. If you go too far you just combine the two to get back to a reduced sweetness.

Wine intended for bulk aging should get 1/4 tsp Kmeta per 5 gallons of wine. Then an airlock, never totally sealed as any renewed fermentation or CO2 off gassing can pop the cork, so to speak. If you don’t have enough wine to keep the carboy totally topped off, use a similar store bought wine to top off. Minimizing the air in the headspace is the goal.

If I top off with a store-bought wine, should it be an unopened bottle, or could it be one that was opened a month ago, still corked and is now being used for cooking wine?

 

[Ohio Bob]

If I top off with a store-bought wine, should it be an unopened bottle, or could it be one that was opened a month ago, still corked and is now being used for cooking wine?

Way more risk with the bottle that’s been open for a month. It has lots of air to start oxidizing the wine. Use a store bought unopened.