Apple Wine -- First Ever Wine Attempt

[J-Dewey_1980]

I take that to mean I could siphon it out back into my primary, clean/sanitize the carboy, then put it back in...then top off? If I go that route, how do I minimize oxidation? Just cover/airlock my primary bucket and do things as quickly as possible?

Sorry if this is an overly obvious question, but what would you consider a comparable wine to top it off with?

Thanks!

 

[winemaker81]

I take that to mean I could siphon it out back into my primary, clean/sanitize the carboy, then put it back in...then top off? If I go that route, how do I minimize oxidation? Just cover/airlock my primary bucket and do things as quickly as possible?

Oxidation is not a rapid process. It is a factor of wine volume vs. air exposure (head space) vs. time. A small volume of wine with a large headspace oxidizes faster than a large volume with a small headspace. Your wine will not oxidize in the length of time that is required to rack the wine into a primary, clean the carboy, and rack back.

This is not to say that air exposure should be taken lightly -- just that it's not the boogey man. Do things efficiently but without panic.

It's also important to add K-meta at rackings, as K-meta neutralizes harmful things (such as O2) by binding to them, which uses up free SO2. That's why we have to add more K-meta.

Sorry if this is an overly obvious question, but what would you consider a comparable wine to top it off with?

Nope, it's a very good question. A commercial apple wine would be a good choice, along with anything lightly flavored such as a Pinot Grigio. I would not use Chardonnay as most are strongly flavored, nor would I use a New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc due to the typically grassy flavor.

Another option is to stabilize the wine (sorbate + K-meta) to prevent a renewed fermentation, and top with apple juice and/or frozen apple concentrate. This will improve flavor and aroma, but it will reduce the ABV. IME fruit wines need at least a bit of backsweetening anyway.

While it doesn't help you today, for future reference take batch size into consideration. Always plan that you'll have more wine than your primary container, so you have top-up when you need it. If making something new, post a question about batch size.

 

[J-Dewey_1980]

Very helpful--thank you so much!

 

[BigDaveK]

Sorry if this is an overly obvious question, but what would you consider a comparable wine to top it off with?

This may sound crazy but being a country wine maker I bottled some bone dry apple wine, pear wine, and tomato wine in 375 ml bottles just for topping up. If there's any left I drink it!

 

[winemaker81]

This may sound crazy but being a country wine maker I bottled some bone dry apple wine, pear wine, and tomato wine in 375 ml bottles just for topping up. If there's any left I drink it!

Crazy? Nope! It's good sense.

If I goof in batch planning, I grab a bottle of something that is compatible and use it. My FWK Frutta (Blackberry and Strawberry) and Chocolate Raspberry Port needed topping, so I opened dry red. Note these are all heavier wines, so a dry red was a good choice. Not quite what I'd use for Apple ....

 

[ChuckD]

after racking it over from primary about 3 weeks ago. It’s starting to clear nicely, but I see about an inch of fine lees has now formed. Thinking about racking it

I don’t think anyone has mentioned it, but if it’s just fine lees (no fruit pulp) you could just let it ride for a while yet. I’m decidedly in camp “rack less”. I typically rack once after gross lees settle, once when it is clear, bulk age for a few moths to many moths, then rack at bottling. If I am back sweetening I’ll leave it sit in carboy for a week or so before bottling to be sure it isn’t going to re ferment.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Can I just put it in a screw cap wine bottle at room temp, or what is everyone’s process at this point

one industrial version of what you are looking at is to use a “bag in box” liner. For home use you could recycle a 1.5 liter BIB, note they actually hold more when not confined by the box. BIB are available on Amazon, the ten liter as an example holds about 2.75 gallons without the box.

As Bryan notes is it degassed/ fermentation finished. ,,, One trick is to push the air our/ zero headspace, if this releases gas you will see it turn into a pillow and then can again push the gas out and close the valve. What else, The ones I have get supported by the spout and they are flexible so racking lees off isn’t the easiest.

I would like to second @ChuckD ,,, less racking minimizes a lot of the oxidation problem.

 

[J-Dewey_1980]

Bumping this up. Thank you, everyone, for your help to this point.

After 10 long months of bulk-aging, I am ready to back-sweeten and bottle. The issue is...I don't know how to back-sweeten and bottle, lol.

My plan, after much research, is to use Xylitol. Where I get stuck is I have a full 6-gallon carboy with no room to add volume and no way to mix that won’t agitate the fine lees in the bottom of the carboy. So how do I back-sweeten in terms of a vessel?

My plan is to siphon out one gallon into a sterilized food grade bucket, re-airlock my carboy, then experiment with that one gallon to get the sweetness I prefer. At that point, I will bottle out of the bucket. Then I will siphon out the rest of the carboy, sweeten accordingly, and then bottle the rest. Does this seem like a reasonable approach?

My concerns…

I know air isn’t the devil in short stints, but how long can I mess with sweetening/siphoning out of an open top 5-gallon bucket before I run this risk of oxidation? Likewise, once I take a gallon out of the carboy and re-airlock, I still have all that head space. If I do this all over the course of a couple hours, is that okay? Or is there a better system I should be trying?

For sweetening, I have seen anywhere from 1T per gallon to 3T per gallon for Xylitol. Any experience there? I like wine somewhat on the dry side. My wife likes dessert wines. I think if we meet in the middle, we will both be happy. Once I get a flavor we both like, is that flavor going to change once bottled, or is that what it should remain like?

As for sanitizing bottles, I will search this site as I am sure there is plenty out there for that. Any general tips are appreciated.

Thank you!

 

[winemaker81]

My plan, after much research, is to use Xylitol. Where I get stuck is I have a full 6-gallon carboy with no room to add volume and no way to mix that won’t agitate the fine lees in the bottom of the carboy. So how do I back-sweeten in terms of a vessel?

Rack off the sediment. There isn't another choice that won't stir it back into suspension.

I have no experience with Xylitol, but it's like every other additive -- it's a lot easier to add more than to take some out. Use less than you think and add in small increments.

Starting with a gallon makes sense. I'd add a teaspoon to the gallon, stir well, and taste. There's 3 tsp in a Tbsp, so you're adding 1/3 the minimum dosage that you read. Add by teaspoon, stirring well in between, and tasting. If you think you're getting close to where you want to be, reduce the addition to 1/2 or 1/4 tsp.

When you think it needs just a bit more, stop. It doesn't.

 

[ChuckD]

Bumping this up. Thank you, everyone, for your help to this point.

After 10 long months of bulk-aging, I am ready to back-sweeten and bottle. The issue is...I don't know how to back-sweeten and bottle, lol.

My plan, after much research, is to use Xylitol. Where I get stuck is I have a full 6-gallon carboy with no room to add volume and no way to mix that won’t agitate the fine lees in the bottom of the carboy. So how do I back-sweeten in terms of a vessel?

My plan is to siphon out one gallon into a sterilized food grade bucket, re-airlock my carboy, then experiment with that one gallon to get the sweetness I prefer. At that point, I will bottle out of the bucket. Then I will siphon out the rest of the carboy, sweeten accordingly, and then bottle the rest. Does this seem like a reasonable approach?

My concerns…

I know air isn’t the devil in short stints, but how long can I mess with sweetening/siphoning out of an open top 5-gallon bucket before I run this risk of oxidation? Likewise, once I take a gallon out of the carboy and re-airlock, I still have all that head space. If I do this all over the course of a couple hours, is that okay? Or is there a better system I should be trying?

For sweetening, I have seen anywhere from 1T per gallon to 3T per gallon for Xylitol. Any experience there? I like wine somewhat on the dry side. My wife likes dessert wines. I think if we meet in the middle, we will both be happy. Once I get a flavor we both like, is that flavor going to change once bottled, or is that what it should remain like?

As for sanitizing bottles, I will search this site as I am sure there is plenty out there for that. Any general tips are appreciated.

Thank you!

I rack off of the fine lees into a 6 gallon pail with a drain valve and use one of those bottling wands to fill the bottles. I add k-meta while racking to get it mixed in.

I have never used xylitol. I use sugar and sorbate to prevent re-fermentation.

Between racking’ testing, and bottling the wine may be sitting exposed to oxygen for two hours. I haven’t noticed any oxidation yet.

 

[J-Dewey_1980]

Thanks, all.

So a 1/4 tsp of k meta to 6 gallons? Add right to the new bucket, then rack the wine in and stir? Then sweeten and bottle?

 

[BigDaveK]

I like wine somewhat on the dry side. My wife likes dessert wines. I think if we meet in the middle, we will both be happy.

You've got 6 gallons to play with. Sweeten it to your liking and bottle let's say half. Sweeten the rest to her liking and bottle the rest. Each of you could be very happy. I often split batches to accommodate people.

 

[winemaker81]

I know air isn’t the devil in short stints, but how long can I mess with sweetening/siphoning out of an open top 5-gallon bucket before I run this risk of oxidation? Likewise, once I take a gallon out of the carboy and re-airlock, I still have all that head space. If I do this all over the course of a couple hours, is that okay? Or is there a better system I should be trying?

Oxidation is a slow process, so there is no immediate concern. Not that you should be cavalier about it, but a few hours exposure is not a real problem. Adding K-meta at each racking and at bottling address O2 exposure.

Something to consider is the loss of volume from testing. Have a compatible wine on hand to topup the carboy when you're done.

As for sanitizing bottles, I will search this site as I am sure there is plenty out there for that. Any general tips are appreciated.

A common sanitizing solution is 2 to 3 Tbsp K-meta + 1 Tbsp acid (tartaric is best, but blend works) in 1 US gallon of water. You can pour a few oz into a bottle, swirl it, then pour into the next one. Keep doing it until all have been treated. Shake out any excess but don't worry about a bit of remaining drops.

So a 1/4 tsp of k meta to 6 gallons? Add right to the new bucket, then rack the wine in and stir? Then sweeten and bottle?

yes

 

[Rice_Guy]

* Xylitol is about 3/4 the sweetness of sugar.
* I can weigh so my standard is a bench trial ex 1gm per 100ml etc. It works as well with 1t per cup or pint
* one can dose sugar directly into the 20 or 30 bottles then fill. I label the last two “lees” bottles to isolate.
* optimum sweet is a linear function of TA vs gravity

A guideline for where to balance TA on wine;
after club contest this year I collected eight first place wines which are the red triangles
View attachment 81200
The sample set "cloud" is primarily commercial wines, with some collected in the vinters club and here on WineMakingTalk
NOTE: TA is one of several quality traits which a first place wine has as absence of flavor defect, appropriate aroma for the variety and clarity , , , etc.
NOTE 2: this is an easy test, if ya'll are interested in your wine ,,, PM me

 

[J-Dewey_1980]

A common sanitizing solution is 2 to 3 Tbsp K-meta + 1 Tbsp acid (tartaric is best, but blend works) in 1 US gallon of water. You can pour a few oz into a bottle, swirl it, then pour into the next one. Keep doing it until all have been treated. Shake out any excess but don't worry about a bit of remaining drops.

Do you also sanitize your corks? Same solution?

 

[winemaker81]

Do you also sanitize your corks? Same solution?

I don't sanitize bottles or corks.

I take a clue from commercial wineries, where bottles go from box to bottling line with no treatment. Corks are dropped from the bag into the hopper.

My bottles are cleaned and fully dried, and inspected before being stored mouth-down in clean cases. There's nothing in the bottle for anything to grow on, and nothing can crawl in. I inspect each bottle as it's lined up for filling, rejecting any that don't pass. I get very few rejections, maybe 1 in 200.

Corks are kept in the original bag. I wipe the counter with K-meta solution prior to bottling, then I line up the corks I'll be using on it. Between bottlings the bag is rolled tight and secured with a binder clip.

A lot of folks go through extra sanitation measures. If it makes you feel more comfortable, then do it. The method I mentioned works fine.

 

[J-Dewey_1980]

Do I also need to add potassium sorbate? I read something that said "if making a sweet wine you must also add 0.3 tsp of potassium sorbate per gallon of wine." What is the function of that? Is it mandatory?
Also, related to a new bacth I kind of goofed last night when starting out. I added K Meta by dissolving it in a small amout of water and put that in the must. I meant to do the same with pectic enzyme and yeast nutrient, but inadvertanly just pitched the latter two in without dissolving first and one of them clumped and floated (I think the PE). I scooped the clumps out and dissovled them, then added that back in. Is that sufficent? Or should I add more of one or the other or both?

 

[Rice_Guy]

Sorbate keeps yeast from reproducing, ,,, eating the new sugar.
Old wine does not have live yeast, ,,, a year, ,,, 9 months.
Young wine has live yeast, ,,, 6 months, ,,, and 8 months. Young wine needs sorbate.
Pasteurized wine 140F for 45 minutes has killed the yeast. Pasteurized does not need sorbate.

 

[Jovimaple]

Also, related to a new bacth I kind of goofed last night when starting out. I added K Meta by dissolving it in a small amout of water and put that in the must. I meant to do the same with pectic enzyme and yeast nutrient, but inadvertanly just pitched the latter two in without dissolving first and one of them clumped and floated (I think the PE). I scooped the clumps out and dissovled them, then added that back in. Is that sufficent? Or should I add more of one or the other or both?

You should be fine as long as the additives were added. I often don't dissolve them before adding them. They just will take a big longer to meld with the must.

 

[J-Dewey_1980]

Sorbate keeps yeast from reproducing, ,,, eating the new sugar.
Old wine does not have live yeast, ,,, a year, ,,, 9 months.
Young wine has live yeast, ,,, 6 months, ,,, and 8 months. Young wine needs sorbate.
Pasteurized wine 140F for 45 minutes has killed the yeast. Pasteurized does not need sorbate.

This is wine that has bulk aged for 10 months. Can I take that to mean I shouldn't need to add sorbate?