Barrel fermented Chardonnay in 2022!

[NorCal]

How could I possibly be thinking about next year in September Of 2022? The Mrs. was not happy I didn’t do a white this year. I didn’t because we have enough 2019 Chenin Blanc and 2020 Viognier to get us through the 2022. That and the last 4 months have been more than busy.
The logistics of making a 60 gallon barrels of white suggests I get others involved, as the logistic, crush, press of 1000+ pounds of grapes is a laborious task and gets easier with more people and volume.
Major tasks:
1. Finding, buying, obtaining used but good white wine barrel
2. Finding, reserving grapes, getting macrobins in place, transport grapes to crush
3. Hosting and executing crush/press, settle

I have not done a barrel ferment, but the benefits I’m seeking are a rounder, creamier buttery, vanilla flavor. I will see if I can get 3 other winemakers interested in making 300 bottles of Chardonnay next year.

 

[user 38734]

There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

For the barrel, there are companies here that sell neutral white barrels certified for re-fill for around $150, and recoopered for around $250 last time I looked. I’d bet there are similar options closer to you (Napa / Sonoma / Bay Area).

For the juice, there are some very respectable vineyards / wineries here that sell harvested, crushed, chilled, racked, settled, ready-to-ferment white juice (typically Chard and Viognier), somewhere in the $1.50/lb range. They do all the processing, you just show up with your vessel. Beer kegs (15.5 gallons) are common – either as a permanent or intermediary container. Usually, but not always, there’s no charge for processing.

Conversion rate is around 18lbs per gallon, so about 280 per keg, or 1,100 ish per barrel.

Theoretically, you could drive down here, pick up your barrel, get it filled, and drive home. I’m guessing there are other wineries closer to you that offer a similar service.

https://www.stillwatersvineyards.com/purchase-grapes/

 

[Nebbiolo020]

How could I possibly be thinking about next year in September Of 2022? The Mrs. was not happy I didn’t do a white this year. I didn’t because we have enough 2019 Chenin Blanc and 2020 Viognier to get us through the 2022. That and the last 4 months have been more than busy.
The logistics of making a 60 gallon barrels of white suggests I get others involved, as the logistic, crush, press of 1000+ pounds of grapes is a laborious task and gets easier with more people and volume.
Major tasks:
1. Finding, buying, obtaining used but good white wine barrel
2. Finding, reserving grapes, getting macrobins in place, transport grapes to crush
3. Hosting and executing crush/press, settle

I have not done a barrel ferment, but the benefits I’m seeking are a rounder, creamier buttery, vanilla flavor. I will see if I can get 3 other winemakers interested in making 300 bottles of Chardonnay next year.

Sounds like fun, the winery I work at exclusively barrel ferments white wines If you need any help I would be happy to give advice. I will add that choice in yeast matters as much as the barrel does, if it were possible I would get 2 smaller barrels and split and ferment with 2 different strains and blend together you can really improve a wine by picking one yeast for body and mouthfeel and another to enhance particular flavor and acidity characteristics you want etc.

 

[NorCal]

There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

For the barrel, there are companies here that sell neutral white barrels certified for re-fill for around $150, and recoopered for around $250 last time I looked. I’d bet there are similar options closer to you (Napa / Sonoma / Bay Area).

For the juice, there are some very respectable vineyards / wineries here that sell harvested, crushed, chilled, racked, settled, ready-to-ferment white juice (typically Chard and Viognier), somewhere in the $1.50/lb range. They do all the processing, you just show up with your vessel. Beer kegs (15.5 gallons) are common – either as a permanent or intermediary container. Usually, but not always, there’s no charge for processing.

Conversion rate is around 18lbs per gallon, so about 280 per keg, or 1,100 ish per barrel.

Theoretically, you could drive down here, pick up your barrel, get it filled, and drive home. I’m guessing there are other wineries closer to you that offer a similar service.

https://www.stillwatersvineyards.com/purchase-grapes/

Thank you. If you could PM me some vineyards that offer this, I would appreciate it.

 

[NorCal]

Sounds like fun, the winery I work at exclusively barrel ferments white wines If you need any help I would be happy to give advice. I will add that choice in yeast matters as much as the barrel does, if it were possible I would get 2 smaller barrels and split and ferment with 2 different strains and blend together you can really improve a wine by picking one yeast for body and mouthfeel and another to enhance particular flavor and acidity characteristics you want etc.

I'd appreciate all the help I can get, starting with how many gallons to fill the barrel, giving it ample head space. Also stirring advice. I think I'll have 3 or 4 others going in on the venture, so maybe I could convince one to use a different strain than me and we could swap wine, post fermentation. Yeast recommendations welcomed as well.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

I'd appreciate all the help I can get, starting with how many gallons to fill the barrel, giving it ample head space. Also stirring advice. I think I'll have 3 or 4 others going in on the venture, so maybe I could convince one to use a different strain than me and we could swap wine, post fermentation. Yeast recommendations welcomed as well.

What yeast you choose depends on what you are trying to accomplish, we make Viognier,Grenache blanc, Marsanne and Roussane at the winery I’m at, and we use multiple strains and blend. I can give advice but at the end of the day you need to decide what kind of wine you want taste the juice or fruit before you add anything and ferment it and decide what will complement it.

Headspace is important so you don’t have wine gushing out or potentially cause a barrel to explode which can happen.

 

[stickman]

The filling volume I've heard is around 50gal in the typical 225L barrel, roughly corresponding to using 5 barrels to produce 4 barrels of wine once topped after AF.
The winemaker at KJ indicated Chardonnay lees stirring 1/month for Vintners Reserve and 2/month for their Grand Reserve.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

The filling volume I've heard is around 50gal in the typical 225L barrel, roughly corresponding to using 5 barrels to produce 4 barrels of wine once topped after AF.
The winemaker at KJ indicated Chardonnay lees stirring 1/month for Vintners Reserve and 2/month for their Grand Reserve.

What we do is ferment in the barrel, and we leave it in the barrel during aging and malolactic and afterwards and stir the lees that way and you get big fat wines but it doesn’t negatively impact the wines. And your full volume is pretty good.

 

[NorCal]

A little update. It looks like this is a go, in a big way. We have 3 local winemakers wanting to do a barrel and 45 gallons total of others. This little coop should reduce any one persons effort. I also found a vineyard that will sell fresh Chardonnay pressed juice by the gallon. With over 200 gallons of finished Chardonnay, this may be the best path.

 

[Kitchen]

I did three barrel fermentations of three different meads this past year and would certainly do it again with either mead or white wine, albeit in larger barrels. (Red wine seems way too much work for me, but that can be done as well.) I did find an increase in rounder mouth feel compared to a non-barrel fermented mead, but had to do more to ensure it worked out. Below is what I read from a few different sources on the subject, and I had no reason not to follow this advice.

First, you really need to make sure you use a yeast that is good for barrel fermentation. I have no idea why, but this was stressed by professionals in articles I read and best to defer to them. I specifically used D47 and D254.

Second, you need to make sure you have a perfect fermentation. Remember, the wine will be sitting on the lees for months, and if you have any sulfur issues due to stress, you will ruin the wine. So, you need to make sure you have enough nutrients, you dissolved enough oxygen into the must prior to fermentation, and you keep a check on temperature. If you notice any sulfur smells from the wine after fermentation, you will need to rack off the lees altogether.

Third, you will also need to sur lee age, especially in the first couple of months, to continue to stave off sulfur issues and achieve that rounder mouth feel. Lees need oxygen in order to prevent sulfur from being produced and if they settle at the bottom they will not get enough. So, during fermentation, you will need to stir the wine everyday. After fermentation and for two to three months, you will need to stir up the lees every other day (with this being the most crucial time period), and then every three or four days up until you feel you have achieved the desired effects.

Now, after the first three or four months, so long as you babied the lees in the beginning, letting them settle for a few days will not be too much of an issue, and, when you have the desired characteristics, you can just stop the sur lee precess and let them settle without fear of any bad effects. Also, lees, in the first couple months, consume roughly the same amount of oxygen that a wine can absorb naturally, so sur lee aging helps prevent oxygenation but you can also see why it is so important to stir every two days during this period to keep sulfur issues at bay.

Last, from what I read, sur lee aging really shines when performing it in new barrels. According to a few different sources on this, lees also absorb oak flavors at a much greater rate then wine can in the first month or so. The strongest barrel flavors are drawn out in the first month, most of which are consumed by the lees and will fall out of the wine. The results (once again from what I read) are a more integrated less intense oak flavor. Now I have no idea what the most common blend of new vs old barrels at wineries that do this is.

 

[ibglowin]

Sounds like a fun project. Just curious if Mrs. NorCal likes her Chard this way? LOL The big fat buttery oaked chards are kinda out of fashion and things are swinging back towards more pure Chard raised in all SS or sometimes concrete egg. With little to no MLF.

 

[NorCal]

Sounds like a fun project. Just curious if Mrs. NorCal likes her Chard this way? LOL The big fat buttery oaked chards are kinda out of fashion and things are swinging back towards more pure Chard raised in all SS or sometimes concrete egg. With little to no MLF.

The Mrs would choose a Rombauer Chardonnay as her first pick Chardonnay. Making wines the Mrs enjoys is the top influence on what I make.

Tasting notes: Pale yellow. Strong oak, white flowers, toasted almonds. Vanilla, butter, restrained citrus. Smooth. Big California Chardonnay.

 

[NorCal]

Tha

I did three barrel fermentations of three different meads this past year and would certainly do it again with either mead or white wine, albeit in larger barrels. (Red wine seems way too much work for me, but that can be done as well.) I did find an increase in rounder mouth feel compared to a non-barrel fermented mead, but had to do more to ensure it worked out. Below is what I read from a few different sources on the subject, and I had no reason not to follow this advice.

First, you really need to make sure you use a yeast that is good for barrel fermentation. I have no idea why, but this was stressed by professionals in articles I read and best to defer to them. I specifically used D47 and D254.

Second, you need to make sure you have a perfect fermentation. Remember, the wine will be sitting on the lees for months, and if you have any sulfur issues due to stress, you will ruin the wine. So, you need to make sure you have enough nutrients, you dissolved enough oxygen into the must prior to fermentation, and you keep a check on temperature. If you notice any sulfur smells from the wine after fermentation, you will need to rack off the lees altogether.

Third, you will also need to sur lee age, especially in the first couple of months, to continue to stave off sulfur issues and achieve that rounder mouth feel. Lees need oxygen in order to prevent sulfur from being produced and if they settle at the bottom they will not get enough. So, during fermentation, you will need to stir the wine everyday. After fermentation and for two to three months, you will need to stir up the lees every other day (with this being the most crucial time period), and then every three or four days up until you feel you have achieved the desired effects.

Now, after the first three or four months, so long as you babied the lees in the beginning, letting them settle for a few days will not be too much of an issue, and, when you have the desired characteristics, you can just stop the sur lee precess and let them settle without fear of any bad effects. Also, lees, in the first couple months, consume roughly the same amount of oxygen that a wine can absorb naturally, so sur lee aging helps prevent oxygenation but you can also see why it is so important to stir every two days during this period to keep sulfur issues at bay.

Last, from what I read, sur lee aging really shines when performing it in new barrels. According to a few different sources on this, lees also absorb oak flavors at a much greater rate then wine can in the first month or so. The strongest barrel flavors are drawn out in the first month, most of which are consumed by the lees and will fall out of the wine. The results (once again from what I read) are a more integrated less intense oak flavor. Now I have no idea what the most common blend of new vs old barrels at wineries that do this is.

Thank you. Very helpful. I copied this to my Chard Barrel WhattsAp group, to share with others.

 

[Cap Puncher]

On stirring the lees, if you construct a roller system for your barrel to rest on, you can roll the barrel to stir mix up the lees. I know some high end wineries in Paso that do this. It keeps you from having to open the barrel each time. Easy to do without rollers if you use 15 gallon barrel or less.

Also to reduce sulfur issues, Allegro from Renaissance seems to be their Chard yeast for battonage. Per their website,"Because Allegro is H2S–preventing, it is the perfect ally for barrel aging on the lees.".

 

[Nebbiolo020]

I did three barrel fermentations of three different meads this past year and would certainly do it again with either mead or white wine, albeit in larger barrels. (Red wine seems way too much work for me, but that can be done as well.) I did find an increase in rounder mouth feel compared to a non-barrel fermented mead, but had to do more to ensure it worked out. Below is what I read from a few different sources on the subject, and I had no reason not to follow this advice.

First, you really need to make sure you use a yeast that is good for barrel fermentation. I have no idea why, but this was stressed by professionals in articles I read and best to defer to them. I specifically used D47 and D254.

Second, you need to make sure you have a perfect fermentation. Remember, the wine will be sitting on the lees for months, and if you have any sulfur issues due to stress, you will ruin the wine. So, you need to make sure you have enough nutrients, you dissolved enough oxygen into the must prior to fermentation, and you keep a check on temperature. If you notice any sulfur smells from the wine after fermentation, you will need to rack off the lees altogether.

Third, you will also need to sur lee age, especially in the first couple of months, to continue to stave off sulfur issues and achieve that rounder mouth feel. Lees need oxygen in order to prevent sulfur from being produced and if they settle at the bottom they will not get enough. So, during fermentation, you will need to stir the wine everyday. After fermentation and for two to three months, you will need to stir up the lees every other day (with this being the most crucial time period), and then every three or four days up until you feel you have achieved the desired effects.

Now, after the first three or four months, so long as you babied the lees in the beginning, letting them settle for a few days will not be too much of an issue, and, when you have the desired characteristics, you can just stop the sur lee precess and let them settle without fear of any bad effects. Also, lees, in the first couple months, consume roughly the same amount of oxygen that a wine can absorb naturally, so sur lee aging helps prevent oxygenation but you can also see why it is so important to stir every two days during this period to keep sulfur issues at bay.

Last, from what I read, sur lee aging really shines when performing it in new barrels. According to a few different sources on this, lees also absorb oak flavors at a much greater rate then wine can in the first month or so. The strongest barrel flavors are drawn out in the first month, most of which are consumed by the lees and will fall out of the wine. The results (once again from what I read) are a more integrated less intense oak flavor. Now I have no idea what the most common blend of new vs old barrels at wineries that do this is.

In response to your comment about red wine being work, I actually find white wine to be more work both commercially and home winemaking wise. One of the wineries I worked at had a press that would take about 8 hours to press 3.5 tons of grapes and it would take 3-5 days to press out all the white grapes and you would have to sit and manually program cycles into the press and watch it and it’s really boring and time consuming and a lot of work to clean the press between cycles and just a absolute nightmare.

 

[Kitchen]

In response to your comment about red wine being work, I actually find white wine to be more work both commercially and home winemaking wise. One of the wineries I worked at had a press that would take about 8 hours to press 3.5 tons of grapes and it would take 3-5 days to press out all the white grapes and you would have to sit and manually program cycles into the press and watch it and it’s really boring and time consuming and a lot of work to clean the press between cycles and just a absolute nightmare.

I was referring to barrel fermenting red wine in which you will need to remove one head (in order to pump in the must) and then put that head back on after the barrel is filled. Then after filling, you need to now move a now 500+lb barrel onto a rack that will allow you to spin the barrel multiple times a day with a locking bung to prevent spillage.

I dont see how you would be able to do this without serious equipment.

Barrel fermenting a white wine at home is very doable since you can just pump the juice in through the bunghole after positioning your barrel where you want it.

 

[mainshipfred]

In response to your comment about red wine being work, I actually find white wine to be more work both commercially and home winemaking wise. One of the wineries I worked at had a press that would take about 8 hours to press 3.5 tons of grapes and it would take 3-5 days to press out all the white grapes and you would have to sit and manually program cycles into the press and watch it and it’s really boring and time consuming and a lot of work to clean the press between cycles and just a absolute nightmare.

I'm curious what type and size of press you used. The wineries I help out at have different sizes. They are all horizontal bladders. I'm not sure how many ton they hold but I would guess 2 ton for the smaller ones. The press is programmed after they are full for 3 cycles and it takes less than 30 minutes per cycle. The drum is then rolled several times then the next cycle begins. The large ones could hold 3 ton easily. As long as it's only reds or white they only remove the skins to press the next wine. I have to say I spent too many times inside the press cleaning it.

 

[Glenbudde]

Thank you very match for all this informations!

 

[Nebbiolo020]

I'm curious what type and size of press you used. The wineries I help out at have different sizes. They are all horizontal bladders. I'm not sure how many ton they hold but I would guess 2 ton for the smaller ones. The press is programmed after they are full for 3 cycles and it takes less than 30 minutes per cycle. The drum is then rolled several times then the next cycle begins. The large ones could hold 3 ton easily. As long as it's only reds or white they only remove the skins to press the next wine. I have to say I spent too many times inside the press cleaning it.

It was a 25 year old German press at a winery I worked at, press had a 3-3.5 ton capacity roughly. It was a bladder press. And while it was computerized it was all manual so you had to program each step in manually. Very slow cycles. It was very inefficient due to being a older model that the winery has had since it opened.

it took us about 10 hours to cycle one batch of grapes including cleaning the press I had to climb into it and clean it and I’m 6’4 and it was not a fun job.

 

[NorCal]

I’ve been in the market for quantity three, 1 or 2 year old used white wine 60 gallon barrels for our Chardonnay collective. It has been a tough order to fill, but I’m still on the hunt. If I can’t find this by June, I’ll pursue neutral white barrels and plan on adding adjuncts.

I confirmed with the vineyard the availability of 5 juice barrels (55 gallons each) of juice, so I’m pretty hopeful this will all come together.