Blackberry Port Style Barrel Aging

[EricSnider11]

I have been making wines for 4 years now and have always used sulfites in them but I have recently made a batch of blackberry port wine that ive fortified to 20%. It is Currently in a neutral barrel for long term aging. My question is since it has been fortified, do I need to keep maintaining the free s02 level in my barrel. Since I am looking for a tawny style wine which needs oxidation I feel sulfite will counter the effect. I have been searching online for a long time now and havent found the answer if ports or tawnies have sufite in the them while barrel aging though I do know they are added before bottling.

Does anyone have an answer for this? I have put alot of work into this wine and dont want to add sulfite if I its counter productive

Thank you

 

[Johnd]

I don't know the answer, but do know that lots of tawny ports are barrel aged and oxidized on purpose, true to the style. Seems that with high alcohol, and a relatively low pH (don't know what yours is) that the risk of infection is much lower.

50 ppm of sulfite is down to nearly zero in my 23L barrels in just about a month, and they require a bottle to top up. Just a thought, but 1/4 tsp / 6 gallons every two months would maintain some period of microbial protection while allowing evaporation and oxidation for a while, albeit slower than no sulfite at all.

No answers to your question, I know, but maybe some thoughts to help you decide how to proceed. I'd be interested to know what you find out if you get a definitive answer.

 

[Johnd]

@EricSnider11, Ok, so not spcifically about blackberry port, this is a clip from an article about making port at home. Full article is here:

http://byo.com/body/item/1103-making-port-at-home

"There are two major processing concerns when making Port. The first is that you must add sulfur dioxide to Port-style high-alcohol wines. Even though ethanol is a great antimicrobial agent, there are some Lactobacilli bacteria that thrive in a high-alcohol, high-sugar environment and can spoil the appearance of your wine by producing colonies in the bottle that look like wads of hair. Yuck! Luckily, these little guys (Lactobacilli fructivorans is the main culprit) are really sensitive to sulfur dioxide and so will not be a problem if you use 40 ppm sulfur dioxide just as you would in table wine production."

 

[EricSnider11]

Great article, thank you. That does clear up that question tho im still wondering how the portugeuse really do it. What brought this question on was the amount of bonded so2 that will be in the wine once i believe its good enough. I do plan on leaving it for 10 years so just imagine over that course of 10 years adjusting it 4 times a year how much bonded so2 will be dissolved into the wine.

 

[Johnd]

Certainly would require a lot of KMS. I don't think that bound SO2 does much to protect your wine, it's the free SO2 that takes action. Some of the best tawny ports age twice as long as you're planning, hard to imagine that they go that long without some kind of protection.

 

[EricSnider11]

Thats what I was thinking yet they have to have some sort. I was more talking about the bound so2 thats now part of the wine since I have to keep adding it to maintain free so2, I keep reading that up to 30% of the total so2 becomes bound depending on the PH. That bound so2, tho has no protection, must have some effect on the wine over that amount of time.

This has been an interesting batch

 

[EricSnider11]

So after alot of research, phone calls, chatting with fellow winemakers, and Portuguese friends Im still not getting a 100% answer but I believe I have the process down from all of that time. The only question I cant seem to find is, can any bacteria penetrate through an oak barrel while it is full? Or even after having some ulage. If not then I have broken Enigma!
Any thoughts?

 

[Luse_Cellar]

So after alot of research, phone calls, chatting with fellow winemakers, and Portuguese friends Im still not getting a 100% answer but I believe I have the process down from all of that time. The only question I cant seem to find is, can any bacteria penetrate through an oak barrel while it is full? Or even after having some ulage. If not then I have broken Enigma!
Any thoughts?

I don't think the issue is bacteria penetrating the barrel but rather from different microbes that are already present in the wine and/or barrel taking off while in the barrel. Even the cleanest of wine will have some small amount of various microbes that are considered bad, it's just a question of how much and how active. Different conditions allow for different microbes to take hold. Is there any particular reason why you are trying to avoid adding SO2?

 

[EricSnider11]

I am making a tawny port which requires oxidation. Sulphites prevent that from happening. Im trying to figure out how the Portugeuse do it because they do achieve very oxidized wines in a short window and mines coming up 3.5 years with it being as fresh and deep red as wen i first racked into the barrel

 

[Luse_Cellar]

I am making a tawny port which requires oxidation. Sulphites prevent that from happening. Im trying to figure out how the Portugeuse do it because they do achieve very oxidized wines in a short window and mines coming up 3.5 years with it being as fresh and deep red as wen i first racked into the barrel

Oops I missed that, sorry. How full is your barrel? I think the barrel would need to have quite a gap between the bung and the level of wine to allow for more oxidation. Additionally, splash racking somewhat frequently would probably help. I would also bet that aging it in a little bit of a warmer environment would make it oxidize more. I wouldn't go so far as triple digits, like you would with a madeira, but maybe try putting your barrel in a warmer room for a few months. There are a number of winemakers that have started making wines with microoxidation setups. This is basically a diffusion stone attached to a cylinder of compressed oxygen, forcing oxygen in. This would be a fairly expensive set up to get but perhaps there is someway to make a budget version of it. As far as the SO2 goes, I think if I was trying to do what you're doing, I would probably give it a number of months without SO2, watching (smelling) it very closely to catch any problems before they got out of hand. Then, when oxidation was seeming to have gone up a bit, I would hit it with SO2 to keep microbes in check. That being said, 10 years is a long time and I'm sure things will change a lot throughout this period.

 

[EricSnider11]

My barrel always has a good amount of airspace also I've made up a schedule to cut back on sulphite additions from every quarter to twice a year checking every once in a while to check for smell and off flavors. But thanks to you Luse_Cellar I have purchased a microoxydation setup to start experimenting on this batch and many others. Im still researching what the best approach to this would be but thats half the fun.

 

[Luse_Cellar]

My barrel always has a good amount of airspace also I've made up a schedule to cut back on sulphite additions from every quarter to twice a year checking every once in a while to check for smell and off flavors. But thanks to you Luse_Cellar I have purchased a microoxydation setup to start experimenting on this batch and many others. Im still researching what the best approach to this would be but thats half the fun.

Sounds like a good approach, I hope it works out for you! Where'd you purchase the MOx setup? I'm thinking about piecing a little one together just for during primary fermentation with reductive reds like Syrah. There's some interesting info out there about MOx. Clark Smith would be a great resource for that, you might try searching his name and micro-oxidation. His book Post Modern Winemaking touches on it a bit but regretfully I've been too busy to read his book even though I've had it a couple years. Update this thread with any new findings, I'm interested in what happens with your Tawny!

 

[EricSnider11]

Thank you for the information. I will have to pick up the book as well. Any information for this process is welcomed, this is pretty much the first time ive heard of it.
I bought the whole system already assembled from my local brewing supply shop which wasnt much more than piecing it together myself. The cost difference was maybe 10 dollars so I just went with the less hassle option.
I will be posting all my findings once I get started. Please keep me updated on your progress once you start yours

 

[Luse_Cellar]

Thank you for the information. I will have to pick up the book as well. Any information for this process is welcomed, this is pretty much the first time ive heard of it.
I bought the whole system already assembled from my local brewing supply shop which wasnt much more than piecing it together myself. The cost difference was maybe 10 dollars so I just went with the less hassle option.
I will be posting all my findings once I get started. Please keep me updated on your progress once you start yours

I'm not sure if you're familiar with him at all but Clark is a really off-the-beaten path winemaker who is extremely intelligent. He has a whole mythology surrounding wine and music pairing, and he also revolutionized the reverse osmosis filtration system being used in making wine. An interesting eccentric, and the book shows that as well.

Interesting, how big of an oxygen cylinder did it come with? That sounds like a great option. I won't be experimenting with MOx till next harvest or later, and personally I don't plan on using it for aging, just for primary fermentation. Perhaps my views will change, but this is my intuition at this point.

I just pulled out my copy of Clark's book and there is a wealth of information on MOx in here. There's really too much to quote here. I'm not sure how you would measure this, but he says that for phase 3 (barrel aging, where you're at) of MOx, most wines can handle about 0.2-1.0 mL/L/month (mL Ox per L of wine per month). I'm not sure what would be optimal but considering you're making a tawny these numbers may not be all that valid for you. Some experimentation may be in order, but with such a long panned aging period I would be cautious so as to not overshoot.

 

[Luse_Cellar]

I just realized that I actually had the solubility of oxygen in wine mixed up, cooler temperatures actually allow for more oxygen to be dissolved in the wine, not warmer ones. Keep your barrel as cool as possible (55*F ideally) to get the most oxygen in there.

 

[marino]

You could also put the port in smaller barrels to accelerate the oxidation because of the surface area ratio. In Portugal, people use different size barrels to have a sort of somers. Age wines faster in smaller barrels, blend with wines from bigger barrels and keep going. Sure, you lose more to evaporation but the wine moves along quite nicely.

 

[downunder]

Large wineries in Australia normally aim to have 90ppm BOUND SO2 and do not bother keeping any free SO2. Which means ofcourse you are not adding it all the time. Also their barrels are stored as high as possible in the roof of uninsulated buildings to keep as warm as possible.

 

[EricSnider11]

I, so far, have bought "the modern winemaker" book and have been experimenting with a micro oxygenation setup with a port wine Ive recently made and have already been experimenting with heat and no free So2 with a blackberry port I only open twice a year for a small topup and So2 touchup. Last time I opened the blackberry port it was showing some caramelization with a nice smooth blackberry flavour.

 

[Johnd]

I, so far, have bought "the modern winemaker" book and have been experimenting with a micro oxygenation setup with a port wine Ive recently made and have already been experimenting with heat and no free So2 with a blackberry port I only open twice a year for a small topup and So2 touchup. Last time I opened the blackberry port it was showing some caramelization with a nice smooth blackberry flavour.

@ericsnyder11

I was doing some reading and came across the below article, and remembered our sulfite discussion, thought you might like to read it:

https://winemakermag.com/427-luscious-port-wine

 

[EricSnider11]

Its funny because in my aggressive search on this subject I have come across that article and it had influenced my decision greatly on yay or nay with adding sulphites at barrel aging.
As of 6 months ago I have completely vetoed the use entirely and have been researching ways of natural preservation. I have even contacted Taylors and Grahams port houses in Portugal on the subject. Of course they wouldnt reveal their secret at all but it was hinted that all ports made in their porthouses are "free of preservatives during the winemaking process". Still a little vague so I then contacted a bulk port style winery in Australia who happens to offer large amounts of ruby or tawny port style wines. They walked me through their process of how they do it and in the end told me straight up that if you have a sanitary barrel with sanitary wine and never open that bung in an unsanitary environment, there should be no way that bacteria or yeast can enter your barrel while its aging. What they do is sulphite just before barrel aging and never again until bottling. All their barrels are outfitted with taps so they never have to pop the bung. The taps are used for tasting until the wine has matured and then it is bottled. After which the barrel is then steam sanitized and immediatly filled again. I thought I hit the bullseye after talking to these wineries.
I did have a few wineries as well who did keep a minimum so2 level but I was told multiple times that ANY so2 level in the wine would be counterproductive resulting in an exceedingly long aging period and a wine that has ALOT of dissolved sulphur in it.
I have since then booted sulphites during aging and ,so far, havent looked back.
After reading the Modern Winemaker book I have been experimenting with micro oxidation on some port styles with different levels at different intervals of oxidation, even with some heat to possibly branch into Madeira style wines using the Vidal grape.
I saw a post on another site about a fortified cidernand thought I would give it a whirl by taking it a step further with some oxidation in the barrel. So far the caramel tones, thought suttle at this stage, have come through quite nicely and its added some nice complexity.
So far all the experiments have been their own successes all showing some good character with this process so I will be sticking to it. If there is any issues that occur along the way I will be sure to post them.