Bottling/aging question.

[justsipn]

I found out a friend of mine has been making wine for years. So, naturally we talk a lot about it.

Very surprised that I’m aging my wine in the carboy. I guess he ages his in the bottle.

is there any benefit of doing that? I’m looking at the amount of lees I’ve racked off of and can’t imagine all of that in the bottles.

He claims he decanters his wine before he drinks it to get rid of any sediment.
I would think that if you have your carboy filled all the way to the neck that less air or oxygen by volume would come in contact with it compared to in bottles.

thoughts?

 

[FermentoSapiens]

If he use clairifiers he can bottle after about 6 weeks. Its better to let it sit in the carboy and let it clear naturally after several months. My wine cellar is not that full of aging wine so I use clairifiers too. Later I will age all wine in the carboy before bottling. I use to give them just a few months before bottling. The wine is.still superb and clear

 

[hounddawg]

yup, i bulk age everything in carboys racking about every 3 months, at each racking add 1/4 teaspoon potassium metabisulfite also called K-meta, when i ferment i always make extra must/wine, this extra i put in smaller jugs,
1-gallon,, 1/2-gallon\,, 1-qt,, 1-pint, all have 38-400 threads so a 6.5 bung will fit all and i airlock them to top off each time i rack, also a small universel bung that fits glass carboys you can turn upside down and airlock a wine bottle as well, this way all lees are gone and you never have to top off with water or store bought wines, in general depending on the fruit/berry i age from 1 to 2 years, EXCEPT for skeeter pee, i only bulk it for a couple months, this keeps me outta my other wines,,, you can find them glass jugs at filmorecontainer.com and like i saide 38-400 threads so they all use the same size drilled bung 6.5 i airlock them just the same //
Dawg

 

[winemaker81]

There is no benefit to bottling before the wine is clear. Sediment in the bottle can be detrimental.

Sediment includes grape (fruit) solids and yeast cells, which will negatively affect the flavor. The wine is better off with that not in the bottle.

I use fining agents, typically bentonite and/or chitosan/kieselsol, which clear the wine in a matter of a week or two. Yet I rarely bottle before 3 months and sometimes as long as 12 months, depending on the wine (if it's in a barrel, it stays there until I have new wine to put in the barrel).

Patience is an essential trait in a wine maker.

That said, if the guy is happy with what he's doing? It's his wine, not mine, so my opinion means nothing in his cellar.

 

[justsipn]

@winemaker81 If you don't mind, I have a quick question.

When I made my rhubarb wine (First wine ever that I made), I back sweetened. So, I racked it one week before I bottled, added K Meta. Then, sweetened it and bottled a week later. Somewhere on here I was told that was a good process.

Anyway, now I'm making a wine kit (Malbec). I'm not bottling after 6 weeks like the kit says. I'm oaking it for another three months.

Here's my question: Do I still rack it one week before bottling and add K Meta? I would think I would so it's protected from oxygen during bottling.

Thanks in advance.

 

[dmw_chef]

When I made my rhubarb wine (First wine ever that I made), I back sweetened. So, I racked it one week before I bottled, added K Meta. Then, sweetened it and bottled a week later. Somewhere on here I was told that was a good process.

If you're back sweetening where the result won't be delle limited, you want to use k-sorb as well. K-meta alone isn't enough to prevent refermentation.

Here's my question: Do I still rack it one week before bottling and add K Meta? I would think I would so it's protected from oxygen during bottling.

I add 25ppm k-meta for each rack and before bottling, unless I can be bothered to break out my flasks and burette to run a titration and measure the free so2.

Personally, if I think something is clear enough to bottle, rack it to a new carboy and wait another month to see if anything else precipitates out.

 

[justsipn]

If you're back sweetening where the result won't be delle limited, you want to use k-sorb as well. K-meta alone isn't enough to prevent refermentation.



I add 25ppm k-meta for each rack and before bottling, unless I can be bothered to break out my flasks and burette to run a titration and measure the free so2.

Personally, if I think something is clear enough to bottle, rack it to a new carboy and wait another month to see if anything else precipitates out.

Ok...yes, I added K-sorb then also. Forgot about that.

My biggest question is do I need to do all that a week or more before I bottle.

 

[dmw_chef]

k-sorb is a one time addition. I personally would add additional k-meta, as oxygen is introduced each time you rack and when you bottle, so free so2 becomes bound, which you'd want to replenish. If you are just sprinkling the k-meta into the carboy, a week for it to diffuse through the wine is a good idea.

 

[justsipn]

Thanks....that’s the thought process I was going through. But, I’m a newby.

 

[winemaker81]

Whether I rack a week ahead of time or not depends on the wine. If there is no sediment and it's been a month or two (or more), I rack at bottling time solely to disburse the K-Meta. I do not rack a week ahead.

When I've been in a hurry to bottle, if there is sediment, I rack and wait a week. Personally, unless there is a reason to bottle now, if there is sediment I rack and let it set at least a month. Time is your friend and few wines are really good before 6 months, most need a year.

I've read numerous statements that 90% of the world's wine production is made for consumption within 3 years. This makes sense -- who in their right mind wants to wait 5 to 10 years to enjoy the fruits of this year's harvest?

Actually, a lot of the more experienced wine makers on this forum.

That said, keep in mind that not all wines are made for longevity. I made a RJ Spagnols Verdicchio kit in 2018, a white Italian grape. At the 6 month mark it was crisp and bright! I loved it, but let it age. A year later it has matured nicely and is a great wine, but it lost that bright crispness. I still love it, but I can make a lot of wines that resemble the mature version. Next time I make a Verdicchio, I'm going to start drinking it 6 months after bottling and enjoy the heck out of it.

Remember that all wines are different and have their own place. But don't be in a hurry ....

Thanks....that’s the thought process I was going through. But, I’m a newby.

Keep asking questions! Your questions not only help you, but they help other newbies (and some not-so-newbies) who read the forum.

 

[RichardC]

Someone here I believe, said that bulk aging takes up a lot less space than bottle aging. I definitely believe in bulk aging now!

 

[hounddawg]

a lot less space, i bulk age everything in carboys, just got me 2#,, 5 gallon beer kegs and will get more,,, going to have tri clamp flanges welded on all stainless steel, could use regular kegs for those younger could use regular beer kegs at 15.5 gal, on them, then after i bulk in glass to be sure no more gas ,,then i can put a tri-clamp disk and silicone gasket, that will give total darkness, plus they are skinny and tall so more can stack in closest and no worries of breakage,
Dawg

 

[NorCal]

I keep my whites in bulk for 4-5 months, final racking / SO2 addition a day or two before bottling, filter while bottling if necessary.

All my reds I'll keep in carboy/spiedel/barrel for usually 11 months, but more if needed. I'll do a final racking / SO2 addition a day or two before bottling and haven't filtered a red that I can remember.

The biggest downside of aging in bottle is the sediment, the biggest benefit is that it has the least exposure to oxygen properly corked in the bottle.

 

[justsipn]

I keep my whites in bulk for 4-5 months, final racking / SO2 addition a day or two before bottling, filter while bottling if necessary.

All my reds I'll keep in carboy/spiedel/barrel for usually 11 months, but more if needed. I'll do a final racking / SO2 addition a day or two before bottling and haven't filtered a red that I can remember.

The biggest downside of aging in bottle is the sediment, the biggest benefit is that it has the least exposure to oxygen properly corked in the bottle.

That surprises me that you say bottle aging has less oxygen exposure. If I have five gallon carboy with a couple inches of headspace, that’s less oxygen than a half inch in 25 bottles.

 

[NorCal]

That surprises me that you say bottle aging has less oxygen exposure. If I have five gallon carboy with a couple inches of headspace, that’s less oxygen than a half inch in 25 bottles.

It is not the airspace left, but the seal of the enclosure. Consider that you add SO2 to a carboy every three months, but the wine in a bottle can last many years and be fine.

 

[RichardC]

Is it really necessary to constantly add Sulphites ( besides first dose,) if the carboy isn't going to be opened? Let's say I'm going to age for 9 months, and added Sulphites initially. There is minimal sediment, so racking is unnecessary. Would I really need to add Sulphites every three months?

 

[sour_grapes]

Is it really necessary to constantly add Sulphites ( besides first dose,) if the carboy isn't going to be opened? Let's say I'm going to age for 9 months, and added Sulphites initially. There is minimal sediment, so racking is unnecessary. Would I really need to add Sulphites every three months?

How is your carboy sealed? Airlock or bung? If bung, how certain are you about the oxygen ingress rates?

 

[winemaker81]

@RichardC, sulfite binds with "bad things" in your wine, protecting the wine from them, plus SO2 dissipates as gas. Only free SO2 is available for new bindings, so as SO2 is used or dissipates, you need to replenish it.

You are not required to add sulfite. A lot of folks and some commercial wineries do not use sulfite. However, sulfite is a time tested method of protecting the wine from spoilage, as sulfite protects against spoilage organisms and oxidation. The sulfite-free commercial wines I'd tried had a significantly reduced shelf life -- several reds went bad within a year of purchase, e.g., before 2 years old.

The rule of thumb I was taught was to add sulfite at every racking (1/4 tsp per 5 gallons), and for long term aging, rack every 3 months.

Recent discussions on this forum challenge this rule in several ways. One is that unless the wine has sediment, it does not need to be racked. This makes sense, although it's difficult to get sulfite to disperse if the wine is not racked, as there are no convection currents in the wine. I recently learned of a product that, when dropped in the container, dissolves and disperses the SO2 via "fizzing" like Alka-Seltzer.

It's known that less SO2 is required when the pH is lower. Some test for free SO2 and adjust the amount added to produce what is believed to be an optimal amount.

Me? 1/4 tsp per 5 gallons has always worked, so testing SO2 does not appear worth my time (if it's not broke, don't fix it). However, NOT racking every 3 months does make sense, so I'm going to buy the SO2 product that disperses in the barrel (this saves me time and reduces exposure to the air).

Following are links to a couple of articles regarding sulfite:

Solving the Sulfite Puzzle - WineMakerMag.com
Adding Potassium Metabisulfite to Wine – Winemaker's Academy

 

[Scooter68]

Just as Winemaker81 said you can get the equipment to do accurate SO2 measurements OR as stated, just use a tried and true method, save money and time and know that your wine is safe. Making wine without using sulfites can be done but again shorter life of the wine, even if you use a sterile filter to remove 99.x amount of sediment, yeast etc.

Sometimes simpler is better and much less troublesome, not to mention money saving. And you can use that saved money to buy more juice for wine.

 

[balatonwine]

Sulfites have an undeserved bad reputation. There are some people with high sensitivity to sulfites, and that has lead to a lot of fear about sulfites. But most people tollerate this chemical perfectly fine, and over all, for those not suffering from sulfite sensitivity it is probably one of the most safe chemicals for preserving wine and food. As long as it is applied in moderation and only to the amount needed.

One can follow a set formula (tsp kmeta per gallon or campden tablets on a schedule), but, IMO, if one wants to get a bit of a more feel for this, I recommend one start with buying a simple Rippers test kit. They are really inexpensive. Then using that you can get a "feel" for the amount of sulfite you need to add to your wine. You can then always use again the Rippers test, or if you do pretty much the same wine, in the same way, then you can simply use your prior data to adjust your wine each time (in a horse shoe and hand grenade manner - as in it will be "close enough)....