RJ Spagnols Brunello oak packages

[Bartman]

I have a Cru Select Brunello that I am starting and it has two kinds of oak in the kit - a foil package of oak chips/dust and two "tea bags" of oak shavings that are to be soaked in water before adding to the must. My question is, why use two kinds of oak (chips dumped into the must and the tea bags which can be removed more easily) - is there a difference in the oak flavor imparted or the longevity of the flavor? None of the packages identify the type of oak (i.e., French, American, etc.) inside, but that's not really an issue for me right now.

Also, any thoughts on adding the "tea bags" of oak in the secondary stage rather than in the primary? I could remove them after a couple weeks without racking the wine again, and I had the thought of tying a string to the bottom of the airlock and attaching it to the airbags (like a fishing lure) to be able to remove them with minimal disruption.

Bottom line, is there a reason both the chips/dust and the tea bags need to go into the primary from the outset, or can the timing of the oaking be altered without negatively affecting the wine?

Thanks,
Bart

 

[vcasey]

The oak dust works better in the primary, it extracts easier and mixes better in the wine. I would recommend you either use as directed or don't use it and order something different and use after fermentation. RJS Kits tend to not always have the packets of ingredients labeled with what is actually in them. I seem to remember one of my first kits the yeast packet said "Yeast". So I called because I was curious and they seemed shocked someone would ask. I finally found out it was EC1118 and that was standard.
VC

 

[Dean]

I've made that kit a few times now, and the main oak is american medium toast. The 2 tea bags are french heavy toast to give the brunello an oaky taste like commercial brunellos. I don't know what size carboys you have, but those tea bags will go in mine, but will never come out.

I've always just put the oak in the primary. Based on the size of the oak, you get maximum extraction within a week or two anyways. Oak added in the primary tends to feel more integrated into the wine, while oak in secondary tends to stay tasting like separate oak for the first year anyway. After that, you can't tell the difference.

 

[tonyt]

I am starting the Brunello Cru Select in a few days. Do you have any suggestions. Anything you would have done differently or would definitely do again? George was emphatic about me following the instructions on this kit when I asked him about tweaks, specifically adding raisins or grape pack. With that said I plan to use provided oak as instructions say. Primary 14 days or so. Clearing 20 or so days. Bulk age six months, three of which could be in Vadia barrel or I could add a couple French spirals for a couple months.

Bart and Dean, any tasting notes?

 

[joeswine]

Tell me if you can how is the oak applied and how much of it do you use at one time,,George is probably right you shouldn't' veer from the instructions,raisins should only be applied if need and were needed,just curios as to the instructions>>>>

 

[tonyt]

The kit has 2 light toast oak chips in tea bags about 30 grams each and a foil package of heavy toast granules 40 grams, I say granules because it is more course than powder but not chips. All the oak goes in primary. the instructions do not include a secondary fermentation just 14 days in primary.

 

[Dean]

It's very brunello like, but slightly on the light side. Heavy oak, with lots of dark fruit notes. Slight tobacco aftertaste with a medium finish. I wish the finish was a little longer. Needs at least a 2 hour decant for the nose to come out, even after 5 years in the bottle.

 

[tonyt]

Dean, that's a little disappointing, especially after 5 years. I'm not scared to add Tannin and or Glycerine at the appropriate times. Of course tasting as I go. Did you supplement the oak or just the provided oak?

 

[Dean]

I just used the provided oak. Don't get me wrong, this is a very nice wine, however, it just doesn't give me the same mouthfeel and concentration of flavors as a commercial Brunello. It comes close though. Since most good Brunello wines around here are $45 and up, I'd rate this as a $35 Brunello.

The oak profile is very nice, so I would not add more oak. I'm not even sure it needs tannin either. It probably needs a barrel and 1.5 kits due to evaporation and concentration that a barrel will give.

 

[tonyt]

Thanks Dean,
So perhaps I'll hold back half of the provided oak and give it a few months in the barrel. I can top up with a bottle of that $45.00 stuff. I am not opposed to adding $1.50 per bottle to the cost of my wine. I actually have several 1999 Brunellos, one of those could do the trick.

 

[joeswine]

this sounds just like the amarone kit I just finished,check it out (when good wines gone bad)..same mo, at which stag are you in ,I layered my oak in three stages ,but I did add raisins, in your case there relying on the juice to cut the taste ,interesting,how is the body?and have you tasted it ?can you get yourself a bottle of black current wine?a perfect additive for the body and texture,and t true complement to the finish of the wine,also how old is your barrel,after 5 years they don't offermuch taste to the wine,just for storage mainly,keep it in the carboy,let it settle out and then use the last package of oak,or better yet by some powdered oak ,add 3 tablespoons let it set for a month test it this will also add body,rack it and drink it ,I believe the mfg. would like you to consume while its young....

just my thoughts

 

[tonyt]

Joeswine, I haven't started it yet. Just making my plans. Will start Saturday. My barrel is about 8 months old. But I have a Cab/Shiraz that needs go go in the barrel about the same time that the Brunello would need to go in. So I am also having to plan long term barrel use. Tell me more about adding oak dust after fermentation.

 

[joeswine]

are you saying,the cab /Shiraz is ready but the brunello isn't started yet??????????II would put the brunellothe barreland age the latter in a carboy

and use my layering method,,have you read when good wines gone bad? theres a section in there on layering powered oak ,and hard oak..............................read that..tell me what you think....brunell better in barrel..cab easy to Handel and a bit fruitier ..layering should be easy..

 

[tonyt]

Thanks Joeswine,Yes I've read all of your posts. I will give the barrel to the Brunello and age the Cab/Shiraz in carboy. Unless Mike talks my wife into me getting another barrel. I am not quite sure I could keep two barrels full.

So where do I get oak powder? I have chips, cubes and spirals in assorted oaks and toasts but no powder.

 

[joeswine]

BRUNELL SAGA.

Try george if he doesn't midwest supplies,good move on the brunello,the layering is simple ,,and effective,,,,let me know how you make out buying the oak,oh and by the way see if you can buy it by the 1lb. container or so,once you tried it you'll use it all the time...

I'm still waiting to try the amarone you sent,,hard to resist

 

[Bartman]

I just used the provided oak. Don't get me wrong, this is a very nice wine, however, it just doesn't give me the same mouthfeel and concentration of flavors as a commercial Brunello. It comes close though. Since most good Brunello wines around here are $45 and up, I'd rate this as a $35 Brunello.



The oak profile is very nice, so I would not add more oak. I'm not even sure it needs tannin either. It probably needs a barrel and 1.5 kits due to evaporation and concentration that a barrel will give.

I agree with Dean - you don't need any more oak in this kit, IMO. Of course, degree of oakiness is a personal choice, but this kit is really good on its own, without taking the risk of covering up the nuances and subtleties of this kit with more oak. Especially if you plan on topping up with commercial Brunello. Like Dean said, it's not quite as complex or rich as a commercial Brunello, but for the price it is a close embodiment.

If memory serves, the supplied oak has been increased in this kit since the first couple times I made it - I don't believe the 'tea bags' were included initially, just some oak dust. With warm temps in TX in the summer, my primary fermentation is sometimes complete in 5 days - not enough time for the oak dust extraction, so that creates another different problem...

 

[tonyt]

Okay. Here is my Brunello plan. It's in day 11 of primary with all provided oak. SG is down to .998 today but was .999 yesterday. Instructions call for fermenting till dry in primary, says about 14 days or .998. I'll rack and clarify Saturday, that will be day 15 and I doubt SG gets any lower but will keep checking.

It will clear several weeks then carboy age until January 2012.It is very likely I will add one American medium toast spiral during this time to add a bit of coconut that I love. I probably will not fully extract the spiral, maybe 3 or 4 weeks only. Then it will age in Hungarian barrel from January through March. At that point it will have aged 7 months so I'll rack to glass, add some glycerine and will get bottled a day or two later. Comments, suggestions and criticisms welcome.

 

[v1rotate]

I've been bottling right out of the barrel lately, Tony. If you choose to take the extra step of racking to a carboy, there will be a little more O2 exposure. In this case, I recommend that you add 1/4 tsp KMeta when the wine goes into the barrel and another 1/4 when you bottle. I am assuming you will bottle age for a year or more, right?

 

[v1rotate]

Of course an SO2 test kit takes the guess work out of it.

 

[ibglowin]

That sounds like a whole lot of oak Tony!