Bulk vs Bottle

[winemaker81]

My goal is to hold back a bottle from this weeks bottling, and compare to the November bottling.

That's a good experiment. Save 2, so you can test 3 and 6 month after the second bottling.

 

[vinny]

Bulk vs Bottle .... not sure my intention is to let my wine age in the bottle but more of a goal to have a few bottles to drink sooner and keep the remaining wine in a 3 gallon carboy for the remainder of bulk aging.

So I also split a batch this week for the second time in my wine making career! lol. Raspberry Vintners Best was started in March so its not been bulk aging very long but I'm OUT of raspberry wine. I'll have a few bottles to drink this summer, and bottle the rest in say 4-5 months. My goal is to hold back a bottle from this weeks bottling, and compare to the November bottling. Again, its a Vintners Best raspberry so its not a high quality kit but I'm wanting to see if there is a difference.

Is there a downside to splitting the 23 liter batch after only 3-5 months in bulk aging, bottling 15 to drink now and bottling the rest in another 4-5 months or longer?

Downside? You've must to take the time to prepare, clean, do the work , clean some more ... but I'm retired and got that kind of time on my hands. My wine pump makes transfers and bottling a breeze. And clean up is one tube when transferring and two tubes when bottling. IDK Probably a dumb question but wondered how many others do this and is there another downside? It actually gave me something to do inside this week while it was 90* outside.

For me there is no downside. I get to taste my wine sooner. I can have 10 wines in the rack instead of 3-4. I think it holds around 100 bottles. I am not cutting myself short. If it is amazingly different in 2 years I will still be able to try it. I can also decide at that point to make some and not touch them for 2 years, but I am getting an education as I go along.

I often split 2-3 batches at once so I can get three more varieties in the rack and I only have to wash 45 bottles. 90 makes for a much longer day. AND I think we all have a lazy and cheap side... 13 bottles are ready to be rinsed out and refilled. No need to pull off, clean, and relabel.

 

[Shurt1073]

Thanks for the reply Bryan & Dave .... just wondered if I was missing something.

 

[Newbie Mel]

I found this thread when looking for information on bulk aging. I’ve read some say they bulk age with a non venting bung. Is this preferable to bottling because of the volume in a carboy is less likely to cause issues with oxygenation than volume in a bottle?

 

[winemaker81]

I found this thread when looking for information on bulk aging. I’ve read some say they bulk age with a non venting bung. Is this preferable to bottling because of the volume in a carboy is less likely to cause issues with oxygenation than volume in a bottle?

For carboys and demijohns, I use an airlock or vented bung, to avoid blowing the bung due to changes in temperature and/or barometric pressure. When I had a carboy too full and the temperature & pressure both changed, I've had wine in the airlock or seep through the vented bung.

For bottles, this problem doesn't exist, due to much lower volume, and the cork is a very tight fit.

I use a solid (non-venting) bung for barrels, as water/alcohol evaporate through the wood, forming a vacuum inside the barrel. Sometimes I roll the barrel a bit, and a solid bung doesn't let wine out. I don't use solid bungs in any non-wooden container.

 

[vinny]

I found this thread when looking for information on bulk aging. I’ve read some say they bulk age with a non venting bung. Is this preferable to bottling because of the volume in a carboy is less likely to cause issues with oxygenation than volume in a bottle?

There is definitely less O2 in a carboy than spread over 30 bottles. The other concern is that in one vessel any changes to the wine will effect the entire batch as noted earlier in the thread.

For carboys and demijohns, I use an airlock or vented bung, to avoid blowing the bung due to changes in temperature and/or barometric pressure. When I had a carboy too full and the temperature & pressure both changed, I've had wine in the airlock or seep through the vented bung.

I had one solid bung in with 6 vented bungs. It took 4 months to go from winter temps to steady warm summer days that were enough to change the volume, but that solid bung popped. I noticed it within 24 hours, dosed with K-meta, and no harm was done. It was interesting because during bottle shock the wine seemed to oxidize fast. Within hours, but now that it has stabilized I can't help but wonder if it was just my paranoia creeping in. I thought maybe it had absorbed enough O2 that it was enough to notice with a little more exposure, seems to just have been the shock though.

I had another, the Montepulciano blend, that smelled of vinegar, but had no signs of it on the pallet. I just opened a bottle after 6-8 weeks and there is no sign of vinegar on the nose anymore. Very strange stuff that bottle shock.

Long story short.. I use vented bungs religiously.

 

[winemaker81]

There is definitely less O2 in a carboy than spread over 30 bottles.

O2 amounts in carboy vs bottle is not a valid concern. Think about it -- home winemakers and commercial wineries bottle wine which may set in a rack for years, even decades. The tiny amount of O2 in the ullage is not a problem -- O2 ingress through the cork is the real concern. Premium wines use high-end corks that have lower O2 ingress rates and longer periods before degradation.

 

[vinny]

O2 amounts in carboy vs bottle is not a valid concern. Think about it -- home winemakers and commercial wineries bottle wine which may set in a rack for years, even decades. The tiny amount of O2 in the ullage is not a problem -- O2 ingress through the cork is the real concern. Premium wines use high-end corks that have lower O2 ingress rates and longer periods before degradation.

I don't make this stuff up.. I absorb it!

* a general statement,
a 10,000 gallon stainless tank has less oxidation risk > than a 7gallon PET which is about the same as a 5 gallon glass carboy > and a 1 gallon has more risk of oxidation > and a 750ml has faster oxidation. ,,,, with a larger volume you spread the contaminating oxygen/ head space over a larger volume.

So, 2 reasons I split my wine is to get it into the rack, and thus my mouth, but also to make sure I don't drink it all so I can enjoy it well aged. On top of that I push it out at least 6 months so I can assess balance and make adjustments to ensure that what I bottle is complete in my mind. There is also the thought in my mind that once bottled there is now an expiry date on that bottle. There are many comments on here that note that any given wine has a life expectancy, or at least a point where it is no longer improving and eventually declining. I use synthetics, so O2 ingress has never been a consideration for me, and I was giving credit (perhaps unwarranted) to ullage as a factor in an older wine turning.

So now you bring up more questions. With Nomacorc's am I significantly increasing the bottle life of a wine over a corked bottle? Would it be a consideration to get cork stoppers for a carboy to allow a little micro oxidation if it is not happening in the bottle?

Now, as far as barrels go, I get that there is concentration due to evaporation on top of micro oxidation adding to the quality of aging, and this might be worthy of it's own post, but micro oxidation really has me boggled. If a vessel has a seal that is slowly allowing O2 into contact with the wine, would allowing a little in by popping an impenetrable seal on occasion not do the same thing? Or taking out one oz and leaving it on the counter and introducing a small amount of fully oxidized wine, not micro oxidize an entire batch, or is the chemical reaction actually different with the slower and lesser O2 exposure.

It just seems to me that there should be a simple way to accomplish what people are going to great lengths to accomplish with complex micro O2 equipment.

 

[winemaker81]

I don't make this stuff up.. I absorb it!

I understand. I was intending to address this point a while back, and you were in the line of fire when I got around to it. My comments are general, although I understand your POV.

There is also the thought in my mind that once bottled there is now an expiry date on that bottle.

Let me re-phrase your statement: There is also the thought in my mind that once bottled there is now an expiry date on that bottle the wine.

Every batch has an expiration date. Type of fruit, yeast, vinification style, hygiene, storage containers, storage conditions, etc. all affect the expiration date. If all other factors are equal, if a light wine in the bottle has a 2 year lifespan, leaving it in the carboy isn't going to change it that much. [There is strong evidence that large volumes age slower, but I've not seen any solid numbers on this, so it appears be likely but not proven.]

Leaving wine in the carboy doesn't extend the lifespan much, if at all. Bulk aging has a different purpose, although I note that it's harder to drink from the carboy, so leaving the wine in bulk has the advantage of giving it the opportunity to age longer. But that's to benefit the humans, not the wine.

Bulk aging lets the wine get though early changes as a unit, but that time varies according to wine -- light wines may need a few months while heavy reds may need a year or more. Time also lets the lees precipitate, and as you noted, it gives the humans time to evaluate the wine to determine if any additions need to be made. If the wine is in wood, it's going through changes due to the storage medium, and this takes time.

In recent years I've had a couple of white I expected to have a 3+ year lifespan start declining at 18 months, so I'm less likely to let a white, light red, or light fruit bulk age longer than 6 months. Get it in the bottle, give it a month to get past bottle shock, and enjoy it while it's good.

Medium and heavy reds, and heavy fruits, get more time as they need it.

Now, as far as barrels go, I get that there is concentration due to evaporation on top of micro oxidation adding to the quality of aging, and this might be worthy of it's own post, but micro oxidation really has me boggled. If a vessel has a seal that is slowly allowing O2 into contact with the wine, would allowing a little in by popping an impenetrable seal on occasion not do the same thing?

I don't have a real answer for this, but consider the difference between sipping a liter of beer vs. shotgunning it. Sipping the beer over the course of an hour has one effect on you, while downing it in 20 seconds has a much different effect.

Micro-oxidation is a slow effect, while exposure to large amounts of O2 oxidizes the wine. Mixing oxidized wine into a good wine simply ruins the good wine. Without knowing the chemistry, this analogy makes sense, to me at least.

 

[Newbie Mel]

A lot of this is way over my head as a beginner, the one the that stuck is the earlier it’s bottled the more temptation there is to drink too early. I am still making small batches and have limited number of carboys. Also lack space to expand my operation. I am committed to country wines at this time. If I am understanding correctly, if I bulk age for at least six months I should be ok with light wines. Sound about right? Is there a reason to use vented bungs over airlocks in my scenario?

 

[wineview]

Hmmm…….I would say they are the same. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[winemaker81]

A lot of this is way over my head as a beginner, the one the that stuck is the earlier it’s bottled the more temptation there is to drink too early. I am still making small batches and have limited number of carboys. Also lack space to expand my operation. I am committed to country wines at this time. If I am understanding correctly, if I bulk age for at least six months I should be ok with light wines. Sound about right? Is there a reason to use vented bungs over airlocks in my scenario?

For light wines I typically bottle 4 to 6 months after starting, but many things factor in, including free time. If you go with 6 month, you're fine. Unless you have a problem with the wine, e.g., it won't clear, there's no need to go longer.

A lot of folks will tell you to wait X months or years after bottling before you open a bottle. I recommend the opposite. Open a bottle every 2 or 3 months, and record your impressions. Put your notes away, then read them, first to last, after a year. In this fashion you will teach yourself why you want to age wine, in a very personal way.

You're making small batches and have limited space, so you can't implement my best recommendation for aging wine, which is to make more than you drink. You'll just have to pace yourself.

I prefer vented bungs to airlocks for long term storage for the simple reason is that vented bungs don't go dry, but airlocks do. I use some airlocks, and check the water levels weekly, and may swap them out periodically. Of course, I've been doing this a long time and have a drawer full of airlocks, and drilled stoppers to fit every container you can imagine, plus some maybe you can't, so I'm in a different position than many.

 

[Newbie Mel]

Hmmm…….I would say they are the same. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[wineview]

They perform the same function…yes?

 

[ChuckD]

I've been doing this a long time and have a drawer full of airlocks, and drilled stoppers to fit every container you can imagine, plus some

I have a good selection of drilled stoppers as well. Do they make vented bungs for the smaller containers or just carboys?

 

[wineview]

You can get a drilled stopper as small as a # 2 or 3. Those will accommodate a beer bottle. Oh I just read your post again. You were asking about vented bungs. Never mind….

 

[Rice_Guy]

Nomacorc is surface treated to mimic natural cork. Nomacorc comes in several grades which have different specifications for oxygen penetration, the one for long term storage is Reserva. (0.73 mg first 12 months/ 0.60 mg per year after year one) (cork cork in about 5 mg per year) (aluminum caps 0.1 mg per year) . . . Yes you could,,, which grade Nomacorc

. With Nomacorc's am I significantly increasing the bottle life of a wine over a corked bottle? Would it be a consideration to get cork stoppers for a carboy to allow a little micro oxidation if it is not happening in the bottle?

Micro oxidation is different than oxidizing in an excess oxygen environment. A micro oxidized wine will consume tannins and become smooth, a micro oxidized wine will develope a sherry/ nutty flavor. An easy way to micro oxidize is to store your wine in HDPE (or LDPE for a month)
Excess oxygen produces acetaldehyde, a burn in the back of the throat when swallowing.

. If a vessel has a seal that is slowly allowing O2 into contact with the wine, would allowing a little in by popping an impenetrable seal on occasion not do the same thing? Or taking out one oz and leaving it on the counter and introducing a small amount of fully oxidized wine, not micro oxidize an entire batch, or is the chemical reaction actually different with the slower and lesser O2 exposure.

The head space which gets compressed while inserting a cork in a typical bottle is enough oxygen to saturate the wine with oxygen, >>> bottle shock. I vacuum cork with Nomacorc. Many commercial wineries put nitrogen in the head space, old technology was to pull a vacuum.

. The tiny amount of O2 in the ullage is not a problem -- O2 ingress through the cork is the real concern.

The AWRI has done studies on age and convinced most of Australia to use aluminum caps. Oxygen shortens the life of the wine.

The real answer on shelf life is what is the ReDox potential. A red grape has tannins which react with oxygen and keep flavor components from degrading. Tannic apple also can react with oxygen and produce vintage quality hard ciders. There are a number of other good sources for polyphenols as aronia and elderberry. My goal is to add either polyphenols from a bottle (ex tannin) or to add a natural source (ex crab apple). Not all country wines fall into the use in six months rule! As oxidation occurs the shelf life is consumed/ the redox potential decreases. ,,, And we can’t get it back?

My main concern is bottling. I currently vacuum cork to try to improve the shelf life. ,,, A poorly run commercial wine can introduce 5 mg/ liter oxygen while bottling. A guess is that all home wine makers are way over this because we can’t do techniques as nitrogen flush pipes and the tank which feeds the bottle filler. We can’t really run inert gas on the press creating our feedstock, etc.

 

[ChuckD]

I currently vacuum cork to try to improve the shelf life.

What is the setup for vacuum corking? I’m trying to picture how you pull a vacuum while inserting a cork. Do you use a standard floor corker or a special corking machine?

 

[winemaker81]

The AWRI has done studies on age and convinced most of Australia to use aluminum caps. Oxygen shortens the life of the wine.

I understand that. My POV is to look at things from a practical angle. I've had a lot of wines last 5 years, and one made it to 10, and the final bottles of these wines were fine. When I say "last", I mean the last bottle was consumed at that point, and could have gone longer.

For the length of time that most of us keep bottles, I question if O2 in the ullage is a significant factor.

 

[winemaker81]

I have a good selection of drilled stoppers as well. Do they make vented bungs for the smaller containers or just carboys?

I have vented bungs like the picture @Newbie Mel posted upstream. These are designed for 19-23 liter carboys, but they do fit the Carlo Rossi 4 liter jugs, with a bit of finessing, e.g., the bottom 1/4" fits inside the jug mouth and forms a seal.

I have other bungs designed for 25 and 54 liter demijohns, and the 25 liter size fits 19-23 liter carboys.