Chitosan and Kieselsol

[wineview]

I have some carboys with wine from last September. I only used bentonite at the time I made the wine. If I added Kieselsol and Chitosan now, nine months later, would the K&C work or has that ship sailed?

 

[winemaker81]

You can add K&C any time post fermentation. It will work IF there is anything to precipitate.

However, after using bentonite and bulk aging for 9 months, there may be little to no sediment left to drop.

We conducted the first part of a K&C vs no-K&C test last night. I'm writing up our results, which may take a day or two to publish. Hold off on adding K&C until you read it.

 

[wineview]

I opened a bottle of Barbera the other day and there was a line of sediment along the side of the bottle. This wine was in the secondary carboy for 11 months with three rackings before bottling. I found that to be odd. No K&C only bentonite. I should mention that this was made from a juice bucket. The wine was in the bottle for 10 months.

 

[winemaker81]

I opened a bottle of Barbera the other day and there was a line of sediment along the side of the bottle. This wine was in the secondary carboy for 11 months with three rackings before bottling. I found that to be odd. No K&C only bentonite. I should mention that this was made from a juice bucket. The wine was in the bottle for 10 months.

I don't believe there's anything that will guarantee no sediment other than fine filtration. Most of my wines are sediment free, even after 3 to 5 years in the bottle, but once in a while I'll get fine sediment in a batch. I chalk it up to user error, e.g., I didn't rack carefully enough or something

 

[AR324]

You can add K&C any time post fermentation. It will work IF there is anything to precipitate.

However, after using bentonite and bulk aging for 9 months, there may be little to no sediment left to drop.

We conducted the first part of a K&C vs no-K&C test last night. I'm writing up our results, which may take a day or two to publish. Hold off on adding K&C until you read it.

Looking forward to your findings. I have been letting my fuller-bodied reds clear without any agents on the theory the less I add the better. However, I have zero idea if it actually makes a difference. I assume I’m avoiding the possibility that some color and flavor might be stripped out but I have no clue if that is actually true.

 

[winemaker81]

Looking forward to your findings

The most recent post on my site has the full report. In General Winemaking I posted a synopsis.

EDIT: The WMT thread and my site post are here:

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/kieselsol-and-chitosan-test-results.77805/
https://wine.bkfazekas.com/kieselsol-and-chitosan-test-results/

 

[Ohio Bob]

I opened a bottle of Barbera the other day and there was a line of sediment along the side of the bottle. This wine was in the secondary carboy for 11 months with three rackings before bottling. I found that to be odd. No K&C only bentonite. I should mention that this was made from a juice bucket. The wine was in the bottle for 10 months.

Curious to know if you sulphited at every racking. I’ve heard Kmeta can precipitate sediment dropping out. So if you skipped sulphite that may be a possible explanation.

In my old age, I’m starting to think that after 15 months of rackings, bulk aging, I’ve gotten the majority of the sediment. Any sediment now is proof that it’s homemade and I take that as badge of courage and pride.

 

[wineview]

Yes K-Meta at every racking

 

[Ohio Bob]

Yes K-Meta at every racking

I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe a dual fining with bentonite followed by sparkaloid. One does negative charged and the other does positive charge. Maybe we need a physicist/alchemist to come up with a neutral charge!

 

[AR324]

The most recent post on my site has the full report. In General Winemaking I posted a synopsis.

EDIT: The WMT thread and my site post are here:

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/kieselsol-and-chitosan-test-results.77805/
https://wine.bkfazekas.com/kieselsol-and-chitosan-test-results/

Read your findings. Interesting results. Currently, I have three wines bulk aging, a Dolcetto, a Petite Verdot and a Petite Sirah. I’m interested to see if I get a better/stronger aroma from these than from my earlier kits where I did clarify with K&C.

 

[winemaker81]

If you find the fined wines have less aroma, I won't be surprised. The bitter taste we experienced is still a question where I'm considering other answers than K&C. I'm in the process of updating my experiment notes as I consider points, and I've asked a friend to do a blind taste test.

Something I didn't record is that the fined versions of both wines felt more acidic on the tongue. I'm going to explore that point as we do more tests.

When I make a significant update to my notes, I'll post a msg indicating an update exists. Yes, I'm probably going a LOT deeper into this than will interest most, but from my POV it may determine that I no longer use K&C.

The following page has detailed information about many fining agents, although it lacks K&C info.

https://www.awri.com.au/industry_su...ces/frequently_asked_questions/fining_agents/

 

[Swedeman]

Bryan, I have yet to read your full report in detail, so forgive if I ask something that you have already stated; when was the K&C added? As per kit instructions, i.e. after ~2 weeks or did you add it to an already pretty clear wine before bottling?

 

[Steve Atwood]

You can add K&C any time post fermentation. It will work IF there is anything to precipitate.

However, after using bentonite and bulk aging for 9 months, there may be little to no sediment left to drop.

We conducted the first part of a K&C vs no-K&C test last night. I'm writing up our results, which may take a day or two to publish. Hold off on adding K&C until you read it.

I am doing a French Bordeaux from a kit and doing this exact thing. ( Something to do while waiting for my grape growers Petite Sirah grapes harvest in Sept.) Only used the bentonite at the beginning. I just racked today and It has cleared nicely. Pitched the yeast in April. Will bulk age at least until the first of the year or beyond... I added some of my own Negrette wine I made in 2018. Doesn't taste bad at this point...

 

[winemaker81]

Bryan, I have yet to read your full report in detail, so forgive if I ask something that you have already stated; when was the K&C added? As per kit instructions, i.e. after ~2 weeks or did you add it to an already pretty clear wine before bottling?

The report will probably take 10 minutes to read -- it's not that long, but I went into detail so it will take time to digest it.

I bulk aged the two wines (Rhone, Super Tuscan) for nearly 12 months, most of it in neutral barrels. At the end I bottled more than 2/3 of the wine unfined, and treated 19 liters with K&C. That was was bottled after 3 weeks. There is a table at the beginning of the report that provides dates. The wine has been in bottle nearly 7 months, so these wines were mature when separated, and more mature when bottled.

You're probably thinking what I was thinking, that immature wines would not be a good test. If anyone else tries this test, I suggest they do it with older wine, and let the bottles rest long enough to ensure there's no bottle shock.

 

[Swedeman]

The report will probably take 10 minutes to read -- it's not that long, but I went into detail so it will take time to digest it.

I will read it for sure

You can add K&C any time post fermentation. It will work IF there is anything to precipitate.

Yes, but the clearer the wine, the higher the likelihood of stripping flavors due to overdosing. In murky wine, the fining agents will have a lot of suspended materials to handle and fewer available ionized units for stripping desired components. If you add fining agents to a pretty clear wine, you need to reduce the amount or else you will lose more flavors.


You might find this interesting:

https://www.infowine.com/en/technic...latile_composition_of_a_red_wine_sc_20015.htm

 

[wineview]

I have always used bentonite and only started using K&C. The takeaway from the report in my mind would be not to use it if you want red wines with better color and flavor. Not sure about whites. I’m about to rack a Petite Syrah FWK today and not sure if I should add the two packs of K&C. Would half of each packet be better?

 

[winemaker81]

Yes, but the clearer the wine, the higher the likelihood of stripping flavors due to overdosing. In murky wine, the fining agents will have a lot of suspended materials to handle and fewer available ionized units for stripping desired components. If you add fining agents to a pretty clear wine, you need to reduce the amount or else you will lose more flavors.

This makes sense. I've also added half or 2/3 of the recommended dosage of a fining agent such as bentonite, and produced clear wine.

Overall, I'm leaning towards using no fining agents except in specific situations that appear to need it.

I have always used bentonite and only started using K&C. The takeaway from the report in my mind would be not to use it if you want red wines with better color and flavor. Not sure about whites. I’m about to rack a Petite Syrah FWK today and not sure if I should add the two packs of K&C. Would half of each packet be better?

The K&C don't appear to affect color, only aroma and flavor. The fined and unfined samples of both wines appear identical.

Bentonite can strip red wine color, although supposedly adding prior to fermentation doesn't. Bentonite is used in whites to eliminate protein haze, and IIRC, it was originally added to kits (pre-fermentation) to eliminate proteins in both reds and whites, as well as to facilitate early clearing of the wine.

 

[wineview]

So if I plan to bulk age for 10-12 months, K&C wouldn’t be necessary?

 

[winemaker81]

So if I plan to bulk age for 10-12 months, K&C wouldn’t be necessary?

Probably not. There will be situations where a wine won't clear without help, but IME 95%+ will clear with time.

However, IME wines made without fining agents have some likelihood of dropping a fine bit of sediment in the bottle after years of aging. In whites it's more visible, but less likely to happen due to the shorter lifespan.

My bottling process takes sediment into account -- when doing the final racking, I leave wine in the carboy, not racking to the bottom even if I don't see sediment. The racked portion is bottled, then I bottle the remainder, with the understanding that this bottle or two may have a fine bit of sediment, so I use those bottle(s) first, and never give them away.

From a 19 liter carboy, I get 24 bottles that are crystal clear, and 1 that may not be. I consider that a good trade-off.

 

[wineview]

That’s a good plan.