Comparing store bought TA/PH

[Runruh130]

Hey WMT,

I'm new to winemaking with one batch of frozen grapes under my belt. I have my second batch of grapes coming this week and was doing some research on my wife and my favorite wines. When going to the winery‘s websites I see they list the PH and TA of the wines and sometimes information on their wine making process. On WMT I read some focus on PH and some focusing on PH and TA. Typically, I see the standard 3.6 ph and below for red wine but the professional wineries seem to be 3.7-3.75. My understanding is that 3.6+ is unstable and can spoil. My question is does anyone try and aim for the specs that “professional“ wineries have listed on their websites? Do professional wineries use a ton of SO2 with these wines at those PH levels?

I attached a couple images for reference.

 

[winemaker81]

There's no simple answer to your question. Wine is a highly complex item, where pH, TA, tannin, sugar, body, and other factors all intermingle. There is no formula for making a successful wine as every single wine is different. The same grapes fermented with the same yeast in 2 different buckets can turn out different.

Although typically the pH is low when the TA is high, you can have a wine with high pH and high TA, or a wine with low pH and low TA. The numbers are useful in the context of the entire picture.

I have 2 wines with a pH around 3.8 that are 2 years old. Both taste good and are aging fine. I expect they'll be fine at the 7 year mark, although I only have 3 cases remaining of each so there being any left at that point is questionable. The 2nd run wine I made from the pomace of those wines is also aging very well. It was a bit flabby and I added a calculated addition of tartaric acid, which is now dropping in the bottle as crystals. This means I added more acid than can remain suspended in solution, and excess precipitates are tartrate crystals. This is not a problem, although folks unfamiliar with it may be freaked.

Before adjusting acid, taste the wine. If the wine is a bit sharp, don't add acid, regardless of the pH. If it's neutral, add a bit. If it's flabby, add more. Always go light on additions to the wine. Adding more is easy, taking stuff out is not. You can get into a acid correction yo-yo, and that never ends well. As @joeswine is rightly fond of saying, "less can be more".

Regarding SO2, a fair number of folks use the pH to calculate the correct amount of K-meta to add, to have a set level of SO2, and may do SO2 testing as well. I suspect most professional wineries do as well.

I add 1/4 tsp K-meta per 5 gallons at each racking. My SO2 levels are probably on the high side, but well within the legal limits for commercial wineries. Given how SO2 works (binds to contaminants, which is why it needs to be added periodically), I'd rather have a bit too much than too little.

There is more than 1 reasonable answer to most winemaking questions, so you should look at other options and make your best decision for yourself.

 

[Runruh130]

Totally understood. I guess I find it interesting that what I have read seems to be very focused on PH staying below X but the big wineries seem to exceed that threshold pretty regularly.

 

[winemaker81]

Totally understood. I guess I find it interesting that what I have read seems to be very focused on PH staying below X but the big wineries seem to exceed that threshold pretty regularly.

Ask a question of 10 winemakers, you'll get at least 11 answers.

IMO the best winemakers, amateur or professional, look at the bigger picture. Far too many writers -- in all genre -- focus on what gets them the most attention. Everyone wants simple answers, so they provide one. They meet their audience's desires, even if they are not meeting their real needs.

Question everything and avoid focusing on individual points.

 

[Tim3]

It also might help to understand the typical relationship of terroir to PH and TA. It would be my guess that the commercial wines you’re researching are warm climate growing areas and harvested at a high brix level. Those grapes commonly have a starting PH of 3.9 or more. The winemaker knows he/she can only add so much tartaric acid before the wine becomes unbalanced, and will choose to add enough to reduce the PH to 3.5 or so, knowing any further reduction would ruin the wine. After primary and secondary, that 3.5 turns into 3.72 or so. Now if you go research a cooler climate commercial wine, say a bergundy, you’ll find a much lower harvested PH of 3.2 or 3.3, which turns into a 3.5 or 3.6 finished PH. It goes without saying, but world class wines tend to come from world class terroir’s which produce desirable PH, TA, YAN, and Brix naturally and require no additions.

 

[Rice_Guy]

* my observation is that TA appears to decrease/ pH goes up with age. I haven’t seen any journal articles that look at changes with age. One web site I found mentions that acid will complex with alcohol and be removed from the system.
* I will guess that anyone who is doing red grape in the $100 plus price point/ quality will try to have a TA in the 0.5% which naturally push the pH up. Reds tend to have tannin which has a strong flavor impact, which magnifies the acids impact. A $100 wine should have a smooth flavor.
* reds have tannin which acts as an antioxidant, we can get away with less added SO2 by having tannin. ,,, the risk of chemical off flavor spoilage is significantly less in reds than country wines or whites
* 14% alcohol is a better microbiological preservative than 12% which is better than 10% which is better than 6% in a commercial sangria (but the sangria is sterile filtered so industry has a trick to prevent micro spoilage home wine makers don’t)
* alcohol is sweet, if I look at 5.5% alcohol as Miller TA of 0.2% and pH 4.3. Lower alcohol as citrus soda TA 0.25- .3% and pH 3 (citric acid system) or cola soda TA 0.2% and pH 2.5 (phosphoric system), ,,,,, the purpose for TA (plus tannin/ astringent flavor) in a recipe is to balance sweet
* a professional winery that advertises the TA and pH is marketing their price point, possibly to folks who can’t drive over and taste it, most wineries don’t
* pH can be controlled by the processing, if I am running 10,000 gallon tanks (not oak barrels) and intentionally keep CO2 in the wine this can keep the pH 0.5 lower while it is in my building
* the difference between 3.8 and 3.6 isn’t a lot, if I am using a cheap meter this is the standard error, ,,,, the food world has lots of shades of gray and the manufacturing rules are not just two variable (pH/TA) but extra variables as %alcohol or ppm of tannin or dry solids
* the end quality reflects the growing region, from a Midwest point of view we go through extraordinary hoops as chilling carboys to try to approach quality numbers a hot climate considers “normal”, ,,, are you reading California authors?

There is more than 1 reasonable answer to most winemaking questions,

, , , no, there is ALWAYS more than one answer

 

[jburtner]

pH is easy to measure in any bottle you open. Measure, compare, keep a tasting journal with notes. TA a little harder. Measuring ABV by ttb standards is a process but can be done. Residual sugar? There might be some tricks to get a metric for comparison… Sounds like a lot of work.
As a home winemaker not located in a grape growing region it’s mostly get what you can get for fresh grapes or frozen must.
I find that purchasing frozen must from the regular vendors or maybe getting in on a fresh grape order is pretty high quality then bulk aging for 12-18 months and another six months in the bottle works pretty well - adjust pH to about 3.6 or so if needed then go with what the grapes deliver. Cold stabilize over the cold months. Change up your additives, yeast, etc each season for some variety. Blending can do a lot and maybe bottle some straight varietal too in any case.
Cheers!
Johann

 

[JohnT]

As said above, taste your wine. If you feel that the wine needs to be sharper, then by all means, add more acid. Most winemakers regularly perform acid bench trials where different amounts of acid are compared side by side over a single wine.

Once you have the wine where you like it, measure the PH and then add an appropriate amount of k-meta to protect the wine. There are many SO2 calculators available over the web to guide you in the proper amount of k-meta to add.

 

[Runruh130]

Thank you for the great advice. I have tried to follow the standard rules I have read on here. It sounds like there is more wiggle room on the numbers than I previously thought.

 

[Rice_Guy]

my look at writing the number specifications is that numbers are really good for 1) programming a PLC such that when the50 year old “skilled in the art operator“ goes on vacation/ retires we can make the same product 2) having guidelines that let a twenty something newbie run as QA targets.,, , , , 95% of grocery store products do not survive so what quality/ ie number does the customer want

It sounds like there is more wiggle room on the numbers than I previously thought.

A guideline for where to balance TA on wine;
after club contest this year I collected eight first place wines which are the red triangles
View attachment 81200
The sample set "cloud" is primarily commercial wines, with some collected in the vinters club and here on WineMakingTalk
NOTE: TA is one of several quality traits which a first place wine has as absence of flavor defect, appropriate aroma for the variety and clarity , , , etc.
NOTE 2: this is an easy test, if ya'll are interested in your wine ,,, PM me