Critique my process

[RottenGrapeJuice]

Hey all, messing around with a few new techniques this year, let me know if you have any suggestions for my process or if you think it’s good as is, thanks!

2023 Process

1. Crush grapes - no sulfites added
2. Adjust sugar (with table sugar) and acid (with tartaric) if necessary, looking for ~1.100 SG, TA between 0.6-0.9% and ~3.6 pH (won’t adjust if in the ballpark).
3. Mix Lallzyme EX-V
4. Let sit overnight
5. Pump off 20% of juice for Rose
6. Inoculate with yeast (starter made with water and sugar then mixing in juice)
7. Add FT Rouge
8. Punch down 3 times daily, brute covered with cheese cloth and loosely placed cover
9. After SG is below 1.000, assess whether more color extraction is needed, if so, let sit for another day or two days sealed (likely won’t do this but it’s an option)
10. Press grapes into carboy and fit with airlock
11. Let settle for 2 days then rack off gross lees
12. Add in ML bacteria
13. Let sit for 4-6 weeks, stir once a week
14. Add bentonite
15. Wait 1 week then rack
16. Add oak cubes and K meta (50ppm?)
17. Let sit for 3 months then rack off cubes
18. Bottle at 12 months

 

[Jim Welch]

First, I’ll say there are lots of ways to make decent or better wine, few are wrong per se but there are poor, good, better, best, etc practices.
I have to ask, why no meta k at crush? IMO that’s taking an unnecessary risk. Also, why bentonite in a red wine? I don’t think it will hurt but don’t think it is needed either.

 

[RottenGrapeJuice]

First, I’ll say there are lots of ways to make decent or better wine, few are wrong per se but there are poor, good, better, best, etc practices.
I have to ask, why no meta k at crush? IMO that’s taking an unnecessary risk. Also, why bentonite in a red wine? I don’t think it will hurt but don’t think it is needed either.

I didnt want to risk inhibiting the MLF. As far as the bentonite goes, force of habit I guess. If most aren’t using it maybe I will omit

 

[Snafflebit]

Looks like you have a handle on how to proceed.

I would add the enzyme first step then let sit. There will be more juice afterward and you will get a more accurate read of SG and pH. Then you can add sugar or acid

Also, you will want to pump off juice for rosé before any cold soak or enzymes.

 

[winemaker81]

Bentonite will strip color in a red. I'd skip it -- with your timeline, it's not necessary.

Regarding racking off the gross lees, various sources state that gross lees drops within 24-72 hours of the end of fermentation. If you press before fermentation is complete, 2 days later the gross lees will not necessarily have dropped.

I was originally taught to rack wine off the gross lees ASAP, but this appears unnecessary. Folks on this forum are doing EM up to 8 weeks, and it's done up to 90 days in Burgundy, so the urgency to get the wine off the gross lees appears overstated.

My current practice is rack 2 to 4 weeks after pressing. YMMV

 

[RottenGrapeJuice]

Looks like you have a handle on how to proceed.

I would add the enzyme first step then let sit. There will be more juice afterward and you will get a more accurate read of SG and pH. Then you can add sugar or acid

Also, you will want to pump off juice for rosé before any cold soak or enzymes.

Great point, thanks. As far as the rose, i haven’t done a saignee before but I assume you need at least 8 hours or so in contact with skins. So would you envision it going like crush > wait 8 hours then saignee > then add enzymes > wait 8 hours then add FT Rouge (per manufacturer instruction)

 

[RottenGrapeJuice]

Also one thing I forgot to mention is I’ll be monitoring MLF with chromatography, so 4-6 weeks is subject to change.

 

[Hazelemere]

Hey all, messing around with a few new techniques this year, let me know if you have any suggestions for my process or if you think it’s good as is, thanks!

2023 Process

1. Crush grapes - no sulfites added
2. Adjust sugar (with table sugar) and acid (with tartaric) if necessary, looking for ~1.100 SG, TA between 0.6-0.9% and ~3.6 pH (won’t adjust if in the ballpark).
3. Mix Lallzyme EX-V
4. Let sit overnight
5. Pump off 20% of juice for Rose
6. Inoculate with yeast (starter made with water and sugar then mixing in juice)
7. Add FT Rouge
8. Punch down 3 times daily, brute covered with cheese cloth and loosely placed cover
9. After SG is below 1.000, assess whether more color extraction is needed, if so, let sit for another day or two days sealed (likely won’t do this but it’s an option)
10. Press grapes into carboy and fit with airlock
11. Let settle for 2 days then rack off gross lees
12. Add in ML bacteria
13. Let sit for 4-6 weeks, stir once a week
14. Add bentonite
15. Wait 1 week then rack
16. Add oak cubes and K meta (50ppm?)
17. Let sit for 3 months then rack off cubes
18. Bottle at 12 months

no bentonite in a red wine. It removes protein. Tannin from skins and seeds does the same. No sulfites gives you better ML ferment (less chance for hydrogen sulphide) but you need a strong yeast starter plus nutrient if you leave it out.

 

[cmason1957]

Great point, thanks. As far as the rose, i haven’t done a saignee before but I assume you need at least 8 hours or so in contact with skins. So would you envision it going like crush > wait 8 hours then saignee > then add enzymes > wait 8 hours then add FT Rouge (per manufacturer instruction)

For some red wines (I know Chambourcin is this way, 2-3 hours can be to much) 8 hours soak may produce a very red wine and may be darker than you want it to be.

Also one thing I forgot to mention is I’ll be monitoring MLF with chromatography, so 4-6 weeks is subject to change.

I'm glad to see you say this, I generally think putting a time line into the plans can cause Murphy to rear his ugly head and just laugh at you. Also, the time given for oak might be better to put the oak cubes in and leave them until you rack again, which might be 6 months or more, it really depends on your oak product, your varietals, and what kind of oakiness you want in your wine.

 

[Snafflebit]

Great point, thanks. As far as the rose, i haven’t done a saignee before but I assume you need at least 8 hours or so in contact with skins. So would you envision it going like crush > wait 8 hours then saignee > then add enzymes > wait 8 hours then add FT Rouge (per manufacturer instruction)

Skin contact time is totally up to you. It depends on what color you want.

 

[RottenGrapeJuice]

no bentonite in a red wine. It removes protein. Tannin from skins and seeds does the same. No sulfites gives you better ML ferment (less chance for hydrogen sulphide) but you need a strong yeast starter plus nutrient if you leave it out.

50PPM at crush is good?

 

[Hazelemere]

50PPM at crush is good?

If you want trouble free ML fermentation I would max sulphite at 25 PPM. If you aren't using ML fermentation 50 ppm is fine. I never sulphite reds during ferment but always sulphite whites.

 

[RottenGrapeJuice]

If you want trouble free ML fermentation I would max sulphite at 25 PPM. If you aren't using ML fermentation 50 ppm is fine. I never sulphite reds during ferment but always sulphite whites.

Misread your post, thought you said leaving it out increases chance of H2S. Disregard!

 

[RottenGrapeJuice]

Is there anything I should be doing differently or keeping in mind when making a rose? I would imagine I need to be more careful with oxygen exposure. What about pH should I adjust it slightly lower?

 

[Jay A]

Agree with CMason here. May be too much skin contact. Not sure of variety you're working with, less may be better.

I'm a fan of racking off lee's 3 days post press. In the past I would rack 30-45 days, hydrogen sulfide odor was in the background. Never an issue with 3 rack post press.

Co-inocculation MLF has worked well for me, no more stressing over temperature with a sequential during MLF. I can get it sulfited sooner, less opportunity for spoilage.

Good luck!

 

[RottenGrapeJuice]

Hey everyone, got the grapes crushed into the Brute! SG was 1.094, TA at 0.6%, pH at 3.73. Given the TA, I’m not too concerned about the pH, do you agree?

Also, considering I did a saignee for some Rosé, should I be adding in some acidity to that batch? I don’t know much about pH of rosé

 

[cmason1957]

I would leave the main batch alone. My feeling is I am more likely to screw it up than make it better when I am that close.

For the rose, I would probably add a little bit of tartaric acid, I generally like them to be a bit more acidic than a red wine. But your call.

 

[anthocyanin]

I would bump the acidity to 0.8% or so with a little tartaric for the rosé. Especially if you're sure your pH meter is calibrated and you're really at 3.7 (+- .1). Rosés are more like whites in that they are usually more acidic and don't go through MLF- which means you will need to prevent MLF and at that pH it might be a little hard to do with sulfites alone.

 

[RottenGrapeJuice]

Hey all, quick update/question on my rosé, the original color was quite purple when I did the saignee. Now that the fermentation has been going for two days, the color has gotten much lighter (pic may seem a little brown but I think it’s more just that it lost the purple color). What would cause this?

I wanted to put an airlock on because it was overflowing and attracting bugs, could less oxygen cause the color change? Don’t judge my setup lol

 

[Ohio Bob]

Hey all, quick update/question on my rosé, the original color was quite purple when I did the saignee. Now that the fermentation has been going for two days, the color has gotten much lighter (pic may seem a little brown but I think it’s more just that it lost the purple color). What would cause this?

I wanted to put an airlock on because it was overflowing and attracting bugs, could less oxygen cause the color change? Don’t judge my setup lol

It’s possible the gross lees, which might be a lot of skins, are now at the bottom of the carboy. I wouldn’t worry.