DangerDave's Dragon Blood Wine

[dangerdave]

You are all brilliant! What a great bunch of winemakers!

 

[KCCam]

I am a brand new member of winemakingtalk. I joined specifically because I stumbled upon dangerdave's Dragon Blood recipe a couple of days ago. I've made 3 or 4 wine kits a year since I started in 2012 and always wanted to make something from scratch. Well, now I can't wait! This thread really is a page-turner, but I'm only on page 11 so far - I've got a little way to go. I know it's frowned upon to ask questions before thoroughly searching for the answers first, but this is a LONG thread. I promise I'll spend more time reading in the days to come, but I want to get my first batch of DB started as soon as possible, so it will be ready in time for Christmas.

Sticking to the recipe as closely as possible on my first attempt would be the safest route, but I like to live on the edge, and I'm opting to make a couple of changes. Please let me know if this sounds OK, or if you have any suggestions or warnings.

1. Costco sells the triple berry blend here in Canada in 2 kg (4.4 lb) bags. It seems there are people who prefer more berries in the must than the 6 pounds the recipe calls for, so I plan to use 2 bags (8.8 lbs).
2. Should I increase the 3 tsp pectic enzyme proportionally (to 4.5 tsp), or keep it at 3 tsp?
3. I'd like to bump the alcohol content a bit. In the reading I have done, I've noticed some going as high as 1.110 initial gravity. Would the extra fruit help balance that, or should I go lower? I do like strong wine (and beer).
4. The original recipe called for 96 oz of lemon juice, I believe. Most preffered less, and the recipe now calls for 48 oz. Would higher fruit and alcohol levels tend to increase the need for the acid, or decrease it? I don't expect this batch will be getting aged more than a few weeks! ;-) ... (or days??)
5. Would anything else in the recipe need to be adjusted to account for the extra fruit and alcohol?

This looks like a really great forum, with just the experts I've been looking for. I don't feel so alone anymore. Again, I'm sure I'll be able to answer most of these questions myself in a few days, after reading more of this thread, but I would really appreciate help getting a jump on this batch. Thanks.

Oh, and I'm really looking forward to reading more about the DB Port that I saw mentioned somewhere, and how it turned out. (I love port.)

 

[JMStudios]

KCCam, I'm the least qualified to answer you, but I did read all 4482 posts on this thread and it felt like a triumph when I finished it. haha.
My first batch is coming along to plan just about perfectly, and I didn't deviate from the recipe except for using all blackberries instead of triple berry.

My thinking is that since you want it ready by Christmas, I wouldn't do anything that would prolong the fermentation or cause clearing to take longer.
Experts correct me, but wouldn't a higher SG take an extra couple of days to ferment dry?

 

[jumby]

KCCam,
Experts correct me, but wouldn't a higher SG take an extra couple of days to ferment dry?

Not necessarily, I push the limits on SG in all my batches and they normally ferment dry in 5 days.

 

[Johnd]

1. Costco sells the triple berry blend here in Canada in 2 kg (4.4 lb) bags. It seems there are people who prefer more berries in the must than the 6 pounds the recipe calls for, so I plan to use 2 bags (8.8 lbs).
2. Should I increase the 3 tsp pectic enzyme proportionally (to 4.5 tsp), or keep it at 3 tsp?
3. I'd like to bump the alcohol content a bit. In the reading I have done, I've noticed some going as high as 1.110 initial gravity. Would the extra fruit help balance that, or should I go lower? I do like strong wine (and beer).
4. The original recipe called for 96 oz of lemon juice, I believe. Most preffered less, and the recipe now calls for 48 oz. Would higher fruit and alcohol levels tend to increase the need for the acid, or decrease it? I don't expect this batch will be getting aged more than a few weeks! ;-) ... (or days??)
5. Would anything else in the recipe need to be adjusted to account for the extra fruit and alcohol?

Welcome to WMT!! I'll try to answer your questions, and am sure some others will chime in as well.

1. The amount of berries you decide to use is mostly about personal preference. I've done batches with the recommended amount, twice that amount, triple that amount, and most recently one with 60 pounds of berry mix (only had to add one gallon of water).
2. You really can't overdose a wine with too much pectic enzyme. Having said that, I've not increased the dosage in any of my batches and they've all cleared just fine.
3. If you like your wines with stronger taste and alcohol (I do as well), feel free to bump it up. Yes, increasing the fruit content will boost the body and flavor in the wine, which will help balance out the alcohol. You may notice that the alcohol is more prevalent before back sweetening, the sweetness will also help bring out the fruit and works to balance the ABV.
4. If you have the ability to measure pH, you could just use the required amount of lemon juice to get your pH where you want it. Personally, I don't use any lemon juice, preferring to adjust the acidity with acid blend to get the must into the 3.4 - 3.5 range.
5. See number 3.

Good luck!!!!!

 

[KCCam]

1. The amount of berries you decide to use is mostly about personal preference. I've done batches with the recommended amount, twice that amount, triple that amount, and most recently one with 60 pounds of berry mix (only had to add one gallon of water).

Thanks Johnd, for your input! I read about your 60 lb batch. You didn’t even increase the pectic enzyme for that much? Have you tasted it yet? I’m partly interested in SP/DB for being such a low-cost, well-documented, and evidently wonderful alternative to kits. 60 lbs of triple berry here would cost $160 (but that’s Canadian, so maybe about US$120).

 

[KCCam]

Yes, increasing the fruit content will boost the body and flavor in the wine, which will help balance out the alcohol.

I’ve read about bananas increasing body and flavour too. How many bananas are we talking about? Banana bread works great with over-ripe bananas, but I’m guessing you would want just-ripe bananas in wine, or does it matter? Does it impart a banana flavor/aroma to the wine?

 

[Johnd]

I’ve read about bananas increasing body and flavour too. How many bananas are we talking about? Banana bread works great with over-ripe bananas, but I’m guessing you would want just-ripe bananas in wine, or does it matter? Does it impart a banana flavor/aroma to the wine?

I've also read the same, but haven't ever used any bananas in my wines. I've seen several of our members making banana wine and they seem to really enjoy it as a fruit wine. Sorry I can't help you on the bananas.

 

[Johnd]

Thanks Johnd, for your input! I read about your 60 lb batch. You didn’t even increase the pectic enzyme for that much? Have you tasted it yet? I’m partly interested in SP/DB for being such a low-cost, well-documented, and evidently wonderful alternative to kits. 60 lbs of triple berry here would cost $160 (but that’s Canadian, so maybe about US$120).

No, didn't increase the enzymes, just used the recommended dosage of Lallzyme EX-V. The 60# batch is an experiment, wasn't suggesting you go there, just wanted to emphasize the fact that Dave's recipe can be modified upwards, and you're right, it's not an inexpensive experiment. Hopefully it turns out well.

 

[dangerdave]

I am a brand new member of winemakingtalk. I joined specifically because I stumbled upon dangerdave's Dragon Blood recipe a couple of days ago. I've made 3 or 4 wine kits a year since I started in 2012 and always wanted to make something from scratch. Well, now I can't wait! This thread really is a page-turner, but I'm only on page 11 so far - I've got a little way to go. I know it's frowned upon to ask questions before thoroughly searching for the answers first, but this is a LONG thread. I promise I'll spend more time reading in the days to come, but I want to get my first batch of DB started as soon as possible, so it will be ready in time for Christmas.

Sticking to the recipe as closely as possible on my first attempt would be the safest route, but I like to live on the edge, and I'm opting to make a couple of changes. Please let me know if this sounds OK, or if you have any suggestions or warnings.

1. Costco sells the triple berry blend here in Canada in 2 kg (4.4 lb) bags. It seems there are people who prefer more berries in the must than the 6 pounds the recipe calls for, so I plan to use 2 bags (8.8 lbs).
2. Should I increase the 3 tsp pectic enzyme proportionally (to 4.5 tsp), or keep it at 3 tsp?
3. I'd like to bump the alcohol content a bit. In the reading I have done, I've noticed some going as high as 1.110 initial gravity. Would the extra fruit help balance that, or should I go lower? I do like strong wine (and beer).
4. The original recipe called for 96 oz of lemon juice, I believe. Most preffered less, and the recipe now calls for 48 oz. Would higher fruit and alcohol levels tend to increase the need for the acid, or decrease it? I don't expect this batch will be getting aged more than a few weeks! ;-) ... (or days??)
5. Would anything else in the recipe need to be adjusted to account for the extra fruit and alcohol?

This looks like a really great forum, with just the experts I've been looking for. I don't feel so alone anymore. Again, I'm sure I'll be able to answer most of these questions myself in a few days, after reading more of this thread, but I would really appreciate help getting a jump on this batch. Thanks.

Oh, and I'm really looking forward to reading more about the DB Port that I saw mentioned somewhere, and how it turned out. (I love port.)

You’ve already gotten done great answers from the DB fan club here at WMT. Welcome, and good luck on your first batch. Hopefully many more will follow.

As for the Dragon Port...that’s a secret I carry. I’ve got some of the original batch stashed away under my stairs. It’s several years old now and still warm as a summer night (alcoholically speaking).

Always remember that you can check your starting SG as much as you like, but the fruit has sugar in it as well, which is not taken into account towards the final product. You will end up with a bit more ABV than the starting SG indicates. According to my revised calculations, the Dragon Port came out in the mid 20’s ABV.

 

[KCCam]

As for the Dragon Port...that’s a secret I carry. I’ve got some of the original batch stashed away under my stairs. It’s several years old now and still warm as a summer night (alcoholically speaking).

Always remember that you can check your starting SG as much as you like, but the fruit has sugar in it as well, which is not taken into account towards the final product. You will end up with a bit more ABV than the starting SG indicates. According to my revised calculations, the Dragon Port came out in the mid 20’s ABV.

I'm curious why you would keep it a secret. Is it the recipe that you keep secret, or the stash under your stairs? If it's the latter, then I guess your secret's out now! Or is the recipe too complex or does it contain too many variables to share? Do you chaptalize, or do you start out with a must with enough sugar to leave a good amount of residual sugar after the yeast hits its alcohol tolerance (as my current ice wine style kit does)?

By “revised calculations,” do you mean the factoring in of the sugar in the fruit? I know there’s a separate forum for discussing calculations & calculators, but could you tell me what you mean as it relates to your DB port? Do you assume that MOST of the sugar in the fruit would be converted to alcohol and use the nutrient information on the package to calculate the amount of sugar, or do you use the boil-off method that I read about in the Calculations forum to work backwards to an original SG, or something else?

I couldn't find a sticky about forum rules. Is it OK to tell me which application you like best for working out ABV? I believe the one I've found has been mentioned in the forums here. The author has put a HUGE amount of research and work into it and into his website, and distributes it freely, but I don't want to sound like I'm advertising, and just wondering if it's what you use. I've spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out the best way to work out ABV because I could not believe how different the scales on my 2 hydrometers are! And one formula I found puts the fermented alcohol level of my "ice wine" (EC-1118 yeast) at 21.0%. I don't think THAT one is right.

 

[MickeyB]

I’ve read about bananas increasing body and flavour too. How many bananas are we talking about? Banana bread works great with over-ripe bananas, but I’m guessing you would want just-ripe bananas in wine, or does it matter? Does it impart a banana flavor/aroma to the wine?

I like ‘over-ripe’. They’re practically free at most of the stores here, and have more available sugar. Have used up to 2 lbs. per gallon just for added body and mouth feel with no banana flavor nor aroma, but do know a single banana makes a noticeable difference. Have a couple banana batches going and unsure how much banana would be required to impart a banana flavor. Can tell you 6 lbs. per gallon still has zero, with or without peels.

 

[MickeyB]

Bottled my muscadine/lemon finally...is wickedly good after only two months. Will start a six gallon batch this weekend. Used the DB recipe substituting double muscadine for the berry blend and added a tsp. of acid. So much better than the straight muscadines have had thus far.

 

[Tinwakr]

Any problem with taking the fruit, heating it, mashing, straining then adding to fermenter? I know using a bag may make it easier but I want no fruit to deal with in primary.

 

[Johnd]

Any problem with taking the fruit, heating it, mashing, straining then adding to fermenter? I know using a bag may make it easier but I want no fruit to deal with in primary.

You won’t get the same level of extraction of colors, flavors, and tannin that you will by fermenting with the fruit. Additionally, the heating will set the pectin in the fruit, making it more difficult to clear down the road.

That said, it’s possible to do as you say, adding plenty of pectic enzyme to aid in clearing.

 

[Tinwakr]

I put together my first batch of Dragons Blood tonight, scaled it down to 3 gallons. I’ll pitch the yeast tomorrow evening. I used a frozen 600g bag each of wild blueberries, raspberries and blackberries (thawed). Starting SG was 1.076

Can I safely say that this will be ready to drink by Christmas or does it have to age?

 

[Johnd]

I put together my first batch of Dragons Blood tonight, scaled it down to 3 gallons. I’ll pitch the yeast tomorrow evening. I used a frozen 600g bag each of wild blueberries, raspberries and blackberries (thawed). Starting SG was 1.076

Can I safely say that this will be ready to drink by Christmas or does it have to age?

You could get it ready by Christmas, it’s an early drinker. It will, however, improve with age.

 

[Tinwakr]

So I checked the SG tonight before adding the yeast. 1.070 so the fruit added .006.

Pitched the yeast tonight woot! Can’t wait to try this.

 

[RadRob]

I think you'll make it by Xmas and I'll let you know in about 30 minutes how it tastes. I started a batch on the 21st, starting SG was 1.095, on the 28th it was down to .992. Since then I've racked, stabilized and sweetened. I'm gonna rack again and do some tasting.

 

[RadRob]

I've been drinking since I started and I like it, it grows on you fast. I think it needs more age to bring out the flavors but it's drinkable now.

I think you'll make your deadline. I tasted it when I racked and cleared on the 29th of Nov and it had a strong lemon/alcohol flavor, today it still has a slight lemon flavor but the fruit is coming through at the finish.

I did rush it and it's getting better by the day.

Don't hate on the bottles, I'm Podunk making fruit wine. I wouldn't have it any other way.

here's my log of the process. This was a 4 gallon batch with 7 lbs of strawberry, blackberry rasberry, blueberry mix. I broke down the 6 gal recipe to 4 and went with the recipe except I added a 96oz jug of white grape & peach to the party.
22-Nov pitched yeast K1-V1116 1.095
23-Nov Pressed bag and stirred good 1.089
23-Nov pressed bag and stirred good 1.073
24-Nov stirred and measured SG in the AM 1.050
25-Nov stirred and measured SG in the AM 1.022
26-Nov stirred and measured SG in the AM 1.010
27-Nov Measured SG 1.000
28-Nov Measured SG .992
Racked, degassed & added chemicals sorbate 2.24 tsp
camden tab 1 tab SG .992
28-Nov added super kleer part 1. 5:30pm
added part 2, 8:00pm, stirred both parts in really good.
29-Nov racked and sweetened ,SG 991
29-Nov sweetened to a little over 1/2 cup per gallon.
5-Dec racked and bottled 1.004

Don't take anything I say as Gospel, this is my first batch and I started this wine thing a month ago.