Decision on Fresh Italian Juice

[DavesWine]

I'm moving up to fresh juice from kits as I want to give that a try. Orders at a local supply has opened for the Mosto Bello Italian juices. I have a couple questions if some people with experience with this could chime in.

How did the wine turn out? Is it the next best thing to crushing your own grapes?

And finally, I'm trying to decide on the variety. Thinking about Barbera, Brunello or with a Cabernet Sauvignon.

 

[winemaker81]

While I have no experience with that particular juice, red juice is not going to give you the same result as grapes. Fermentation on the skins makes a tremendous difference. This juice is probably better than a no-skin-pack kit, but that's not guaranteed.

This is not to dissuade you from trying it, just setting expectations. I suggest you buy commercial skin packs, or use raisins or Zante currants to give the juice a boost. You'll probably like this wine better than a kit. IMO it's a good progression for you.

Regarding varietal choice, buy one of each and bench test to make blends.

 

[salcoco]

for the tannins I have had good luck adding 4 oz. dried elderberries to the juice.

 

[winemaker81]

for the tannins I have had good luck adding 4 oz. dried elderberries to the juice.

going back 20 years, higher end kits included dried elderberries.

 

[vinny]

I just did three buckets in July. Not from Italy though. I did 2 on the skins and one without. The one without is 'thin', ligher red, less body. I don't regret it, but I am going to have to see what I get in the end. I also wanted to use my own yeast so I dosed them with K-meta which in high enough doses will foil your efforts if you want to do MLF in secondary. K'meta didn't stop the inoculated yeast so I wouldn't bother. I went into this with the expectation that I would be aging longer to get the results I wanted. They tasted more jagged and unbalanced going into secondary than a kit. I can give you an update to say whre they are now, shortly, I need to taste them, anyway.

I bought 3 juice buckets. 2 skin pack for around $50 a piece, oak cubes, and malolactic bacteria. In the end I would say I am close to the cost of the highest end kit available, and I am not sure what I am going to get. I did get a carmenere, a pinotage, and the third is escaping me atm, but none that I have seen in kits. So I am getting to try other varieties. I also did it as to test to see if I can make a better wine than a kit. Even if that means blending with a kit or the other juices, but you have to choose skins, oak, blends, and any other additives. You will have to decide if the variables are exciting challenges or deterrents.

 

[winemaker81]

They tasted more jagged and unbalanced going into secondary than a kit.

The problem may not be the wine; rather, it's your expectations. Kits are generally optimized to be drinkable sooner, to meet the expectations of beginners. Even though you know it will get better with time, it's pretty darn good early.

OTOH, I don't expect a red wine to taste like red wine until 6 months, and my heavier reds for 12. My 2021's (which are barrel aged FWK Forte) have been in bottle since last November, and I'm not expecting them to be good until next spring. It's been a very long time since I made a red from juice, and at that time 8 months was young.

Patience, Grasshopper.

Record your impressions now. Then give those wines 4 months, and taste again. I'll be surprised if there is not a large change.

 

[sour_grapes]

I agree that, IME, red juice yields disappointing wine. OTOH, white juice yields wines that are every bit as good as commercial.

 

[DavesWine]

I don't really have access to grape skins other than what I could order from FWK. Would those work or without fresh skins or crushed grapes would it be better to abandon this idea?

Anyone with experience using the Mosto Bello juice and did you add skins or anything else?

 

[winemaker81]

I don't really have access to grape skins other than what I could order from FWK. Would those work or without fresh skins or crushed grapes would it be better to abandon this idea?

It all depends on what you are trying to produce. If you're trying to produce a wine that's probably better than a mid-range kit and expand your skills & knowledge, a juice bucket is a great idea.

If you're trying to produce a wine that is closer to one from fresh grapes, you need some type of fruit (skin pack, raisins, Zante currants) to beef the juice up.

FWK skin packs, raisins, Zante currants, and dried elderberries all do that job.

Note -- I've made FWK Tavola Barbera and Pinot Noir because I wanted a lighter red. By lighter I mean less oomph than the really heavy duty barrel-aged reds that are my main focus. These Tavola kits, which produce wine roughly equivalent to a juice bucket, are full-bodied and flavor, just less than my heavy reds. Both came out great and are exactly what I was targeting, as I want variety and don't drink heavy duty reds all the time.

 

[Rocky]

I'm moving up to fresh juice from kits as I want to give that a try. Orders at a local supply has opened for the Mosto Bello Italian juices. I have a couple questions if some people with experience with this could chime in.

How did the wine turn out? Is it the next best thing to crushing your own grapes?

And finally, I'm trying to decide on the variety. Thinking about Barbera, Brunello or with a Cabernet Sauvignon.

My experience with juices is very similar to those expressed above. White juice will give you a very good wine with nothing more needed. That stated, I have played around with white juices adding such things as lemon zest, grapefruit zest, and cooked down nectarines, peaches and Granny Smith apples.

Red juices, however, need some help, e.g. from raisins, currents or some variety of crushed red grapes. I would definitely investigate Label Peelers for this product:

https://labelpeelers.com/wine-making/additives/two-finer-wine-kits-grape-skin-packs-free-shipping/
Lastly, when you asked "is it the next best thing to crushing your own grapes?" I would say no for the reds and yes for the whites. As a matter of fact, I am not sure it is the next best in the case of the white juices; it could be the best, all things considered, such as the amount of labor involved and the mess from fresh grapes.

For red wines, I would say the next best alternative to fresh grapes would be a high quality kit, such as Finer Wine Kits from Label Peelers or Wine Expert Private Reserve or R J Spagnols En Primeur Winery Series, available from several sources.

Buona fortuna! (Good luck!)

 

[winemaker81]

@Rocky raises an excellent point, the difference between red and white juice. Red juice has already been explained, in gory detail.

When you have white grapes, the normal process is to crush the grapes and press relatively soon (any where from immediately to a few hours), to avoid skin contact. Whites fermented on the skins are generally referred to as "orange" wine (due to the orange cast most develop), and while it's a valid technique, it's not as common.

So with white grapes you're fermenting the juice only. Which is exactly what you get in a juice bucket, so for whites juice buckets are less hassle (for the winemaker) than grapes.

--

My son is currently mulling over a red juice bucket. He's my partner in making heavy reds, but is considering making a red juice bucket to have a less robust wine for friends that prefer that.

We are planning to make 3 main batches - two 8 lug batches and one 4 lug batch. The pomace from the 8 lug batches will be added to a pair of juice buckets -- there's a lot of oomph left in the pomace, and it will beef up the buckets. That leaves the 4 lug batch, and I suggested he use that with his juice bucket to boost it. He's thinking about it, as he knows he'll like that better than a plain bucket, and is asking himself the question that I ask myself: "Do I want 2+ cases of that?"

Keep in mind that this is not a question of the bucket wine being good -- he's considering his own tastes, which runs towards heavier reds. While friends will drink some of it, he'll have a lot hanging around.

 

[Rocky]

My son is currently mulling over a red juice bucket. He's my partner in making heavy reds, but is considering making a red juice bucket to have a less robust wine for friends that prefer that.

We are planning to make 3 main batches - two 8 lug batches and one 4 lug batch. The pomace from the 8 lug batches will be added to a pair of juice buckets -- there's a lot of oomph left in the pomace, and it will beef up the buckets. That leaves the 4 lug batch, and I suggested he use that with his juice bucket to boost it. He's thinking about it, as he knows he'll like that better than a plain bucket, and is asking himself the question that I ask myself: "Do I want 2+ cases of that?"

Keep in mind that this is not a question of the bucket wine being good -- he's considering his own tastes, which runs towards heavier reds. While friends will drink some of it, he'll have a lot hanging around.

Interesting Bryan. When you say "pomace" do you mean the skins after pressing or before? I ask because I am wondering what the wine would be like if you just took the free run from the grapes to your secondary fermenter and did not press (at least not press very tightly) and put those grapes in the juice buckets.

I recall when my grandfather made his "second wine" he would not press the skins at all and just let the juice run out of the working barrel until it stopped running. That juice was moved to the fermenting barrels and marked "per la familia." He would then add sugar and water to the working barrel with the skins for a second fermentation. The wine was very passable for a second wine, not with the body of the free run, but still the equal of many store bought wines.

Just a thought.

 

[winemaker81]

Interesting Bryan. When you say "pomace" do you mean the skins after pressing or before?

In this instance, after. I have a bad habit of referring to post-pressing solids as "pomace" whereas I believe it's post-fermentation, post-pressing solids.

Crushing and pressing red grapes, and fermenting juice only produces a white or blush wine, depending on how long between crushing and pressing. There is a class of red grapes called Teinturier which have red flesh instead of white, and the juice of these would produce a darker wine, but still without the body of grapes fermented on skins.

I've made second run wines numerous times. The best second run is made like your grandfather did -- no pressing. Free run wine is first run, and to the pomace for every 2 gallons of free run wine add 1 gallon water, 2 lbs sugar, 1/4 tsp tannin, and 1 tsp acid. There are other ratios, but that's the one I used, well, off the top of my head.

This cuts into the output of the first run, so it's a trade-off. The last few times I made a second run, I did a light press, and the second run wasn't as good. This makes sense, as the pomace had "less" in it.

Last year we did a medium press and added the pomace of 8 lugs (288 lbs) to a 23 liter kit. This is SERIOUS overkill -- stirring that 3 times per day will produce muscles like Arnold BITD.

Interesting fact -- we grossed 9 gallons of wine from Grenache pomace / FWK Tavola Merlot, and 8 gallons from Tempranillo pomace / FWK Tavola Merlot, meaning the pomace had 3 gallons of Grenache and 2 gallons of Tempranillo left in it, respectively. After losses from sediment and racking, we netted 8 gallons M/G and 7 gallons of M/T.

I'm drinking the M/G right now -- it is NOT a second run wine. The result of these wines is why we're buying juice buckets for this year's pomace.

==

@DavesWine, we've gotten really deep into the weeds, and also out in left field. Have we answered your questions?

 

[wineview]

I’ve been using juice buckets for a few years and agree with all of the above. Earlier this summer Label Peelers had a sale on skins with free shipping. I bought eight packages and will use them in my buckets next week. I’m confident the skins will produce a better wine.

 

[vinny]

The problem may not be the wine; rather, it's your expectations. Kits are generally optimized to be drinkable sooner, to meet the expectations of beginners. Even though you know it will get better with time, it's pretty darn good early.

OTOH, I don't expect a red wine to taste like red wine until 6 months, and my heavier reds for 12. My 2021's (which are barrel aged FWK Forte) have been in bottle since last November, and I'm not expecting them to be good until next spring. It's been a very long time since I made a red from juice, and at that time 8 months was young.

Patience, Grasshopper.

Record your impressions now. Then give those wines 4 months, and taste again. I'll be surprised if there is not a large change.

I tasted all three today. They are all young, and they are all showing good potential. The Carmenere is a little light for my liking, but I am also trying to expsand myself here. I wouldn't say that they are jagged anymore, but they are all very tart. Perhaps the variety, but my assumption is the same as it was when I transferred to secondary. Kits are manufactured to blend out and be drinkable fast. I think they come out of primary with more balance than you are going to get from juice or grapes, and you are going to have spend more time aging to get what the kit makers achieve with adjustments and additives.

To offer some insight to the original question. I have no regrets dong these juice buckets. They went fast in primary. Three days and they were finishing. I probably would have benefited from a longer maceration time on the skins, but I wasn't comfortable leaving them in the buckets for a long time. As soon as the airlocks stopped bubbling I transferred to secondary. I have them sitting on oak, but I am likely going to double the amount. These might even be a candidate for vanilla bean. Possibly blending.

I am going to try to get MLF going because they all have a very tart finish. I am sure it will blend with time, but I am learning and experimenting here. I want to see if I can get it going, and what changes that makes to these wines.

I can't speak to the Italian juices, mine were African and Chillean, but for me these are still completely worth having made and depending on where I take them, they might prove to be my favorites, because I am much more the winemaker here, than with my kits.

 

[DavesWine]

So, it's sounding like these juice buckets aren't really a step above getting FWK wine kits. I do enjoy those and I've been happy with the ones I've made. My intent, to clarify a little more, is to take the quality up a notch or two, or three above a kit. I've looked at Brehm Vinyard grapes, and others like that. Those, I believe, are crushed grapes, so very much different and probably closer to getting grapes and crushing myself.

Would you agree that with my thoughts? Then to achieve what I would like to do, I'd really need to go with crushed grapes. Much more expensive but it seems like the quality is worth it.

 

[Ohio Bob]

So, it's sounding like these juice buckets aren't really a step above getting FWK wine kits.

I won’t disagree just yet. One important distinction in my mind is the skin packs. BTW, I’m drinking my first glass of FWK Super Tuscan, bottled 4 months ago. It’s really good.

Since my first try at skin packs, I’ve added skin packs to juice buckets. Those are all still in bulk aging, so no telling if those can be just as good.

 

[winemaker81]

I am going to try to get MLF going because they all have a very tart finish.

Before you do this, determine how much malic acid is present. If there's not a lot, MLF is not going to do anything.

So, it's sounding like these juice buckets aren't really a step above getting FWK wine kits.

No. You're totally wrong. Juice buckets are a completely different world. Dave's (Vinny) post made me think. Point of view matters greatly.

To me, the difference between a kit and a juice bucket is trivial. I have 40+ years of experience behind me, so it all looks alike. [to add to perspective, there at at least 3 members who have 20+ years more experience than I do.]

Kit winemaking is winemaking with training wheels. The vendor has done the detailed work and the result is a concentrate that will make a specific wine. Follow the instructions and it will produce a good result.

This is not a negative. Every winemaker is in the 1% -- we do stuff that 99% of the population can't fathom. Anyone fermenting their own wine is exceptional.

That said, stepping beyond concentrate is stepping into a new world, one without protection. You have zero protection -- you're totally on your own. There is no guarantee regarding quality, and the must and/or wine may need "fixing".

The risk involved in choosing a juice bucket over a kit is significant. But damn! It's fun!

 

[vinny]

Before you do this, determine how much malic acid is present. If there's not a lot, MLF is not going to do anything.


No. You're totally wrong. Juice buckets are a completely different world. Dave's (Vinny) post made me think. Point of view matters greatly.

To me, the difference between a kit and a juice bucket is trivial. I have 40+ years of experience behind me, so it all looks alike. [to add to perspective, there at at least 3 members who have 20+ years more experience than I do.]

Kit winemaking is winemaking with training wheels. The vendor has done the detailed work and the result is a concentrate that will make a specific wine. Follow the instructions and it will produce a good result.

This is not a negative. Every winemaker is in the 1% -- we do stuff that 99% of the population can't fathom. Anyone fermenting their own wine is exceptional.

That said, stepping beyond concentrate is stepping into a new world, one without protection. You have zero protection -- you're totally on your own. There is no guarantee regarding quality, and the must and/or wine may need "fixing".

The risk involved in choosing a juice bucket over a kit is significant. But damn! It's fun!

I bought a $40 package of ML bacteria. I don't think I have anything to lose to see if it will take off. I am going to wait to see what I create before I do more buckets, and that might well be before the package expires.

You have nailed exactly what I was trying to say from my first post. Maybe better, but a totally different game all together. The owner of my LHBS told me it was the next level. Just that much better than a kit, but she had decided that in her mind before she made it. As a hobbiest I am well beyond her knowledge, which is fine, but we need to know who we are going to for 'expertise'. I just bottled a low end kit at 9 months that wasn't coming together for me, but oak and time did, and another higher end kit at 4 months is ready to bottle tomorrow. As I said, these are coming together faster, but what do I do other than change yeast?

Does changing yeast make it better? Yes! Could mine win over yours in a competition? Maybe! Does it challenge me... does it make me nervous?

No!

These juice buckets do, though. It is literally training wheels are off. 100% I can make it better than a kit... but can I? Do I have the skill to read the situation well enough? To know my preferences enough to know how to bring it around to where I want it to be?

Grapes terrify me.

In the sense of buying a huge amount and working to make the best wine you can, THE MESS! Pressing, fermenting, clearing, barrel aging? oaking?

All that effort on a batch of bad grapes? To mess it up at some point.

I ruined it?

I am finding with aging that I am starting to appreciate the country wines that I thought were mediocre, but some I have added oak, glycerin, sugar and other efforts to bring them around to where I like them.

So again, kits come balanced, and I do believe the juices are adjusted, but do you like a deep red aged on the skins? Do you like a little oak, lots of oak? MLF, back sweetening? Barrel aging? Other tweaks? Because you decide, not the kit maker.

It depends on whether these are deterrents, or does that make it challenging and thus more fun?

Do you feel lucky?

WELL...

DO YA?



No Pressure though!

 

[wineview]

Don’t be afraid of juice buckets. That’s how I started when I knew nothing about wine making. I pitched the yeast and let it take off. Seemed simple to me. Then you start to read and find out how to make it better. Seems to me based on some of your past posts that you know what you are doing. There was a saying when I was brewing beer, “RDWHAHB…..Relax Don’t Worry Have A Homebrew”

I do have a question for you. Why are you so jazzed up about doing MLF. For me that created more headaches than anything else.