Degassing Observation and Question

[gsf77]

I racked some of my carboys yesterday. These are the 3 I didn't keep notes on. One of them that I took a sample out of puzzled me. I used the vacum val on the (plastic) carboy - no sign of carbonation taking place, even sucked the sides in a bit. I then took some, put it in a container, shook real good - no pressure released. However, when I put the wand in the carboy and stirred it up I started seeing the signature tiny bubbles associated with degassing. No fizzle taste either.

I would think this is ready to bottle - is that correct?

Another carboy I used the drill and wand on never let up with the bubbles so I left it alone to sit for a while.

Next question, what is the tell tell sign that the formation/carbonation has stopped?

Thanks

 

[sour_grapes]

Next question, what is the tell tell sign that the formation/carbonation has stopped?

The only sure sign is if the specific gravity (density) is not changing with time.

 

[rustbucket]

I racked some of my carboys yesterday. These are the 3 I didn't keep notes on. One of them that I took a sample out of puzzled me. I used the vacum val on the (plastic) carboy - no sign of carbonation taking place, even sucked the sides in a bit. I then took some, put it in a container, shook real good - no pressure released. However, when I put the wand in the carboy and stirred it up I started seeing the signature tiny bubbles associated with degassing. No fizzle taste either.

I would think this is ready to bottle - is that correct?

Another carboy I used the drill and wand on never let up with the bubbles so I left it alone to sit for a while.

Next question, what is the tell tell sign that the formation/carbonation has stopped?

Thanks

As I read your actions and question, it appears that your primary concern has to do with degassing. The effect of degassing by vacuum is not always evident in the form of bubbles rising up the sides of the carboy, especially when working with plastic carboys. Degassing by this method will take place at a slower pace as you can't use a lot of vacuum do to the sucking in of the flexible carboy sides.

The bubbles you stirred up by the wine whip showed that there was some gas still left in the wine after your vacuum degassing experience. Since you didn't note carbonation on your tongue when you tasted it, that would indicate that the wine was almost fully degassed. Letting it sit a while longer with an air lock in place will give the rest of the gas held in solution time to dissipate.

Kit instructions would have you believe that degassing can be done in as little as a few minutes with the use of a stirring spoon. That is far from the truth in my experience. I spend 20 to 45 minutes with a wine whip degassing my wines with more still remaining in solution. Having agitated the wine, the remainder generally dissipates over the next few weeks following the implementation of wine kit stabilization.

Degassing efforts stir up wine sediment. The weeks spent in the carboy following degassing and stabilizing give all the sediment, as well as any suspended proteins, time to settle. After the wine has cleared, the wine is ready for bottling or carboy aging.

 

[DIYer]

You can't vacuum degas in a plastic carboy. As you noted, it sucks the sides of the carboy in rather than pulling the CO2 out of solution. You need to either use a whip in the plastic carboy or transfer to a glass carboy to degas with a vacuum pump.

 

[tradowsk]

I also do my degassing several times over the course of a week or so. Maybe 5min at a time with a drill and whip 3 times a week. I find that after the week, my wine is much more fully degassed compared to doing one 15min session

 

[jgmann67]

Eventually, I got to the point of frustration whipping the gas out of my wine. There’s something very, terribly, counter-intuitive about furiously doing ANYTHING in the wine making process.

Between racking with the AIO, temp and time, my wines are fully degassed with nominal effort.

DIYer for the win: if you’re going to vacuum degas, you need glass carboys.

 

[ZebraB]

I used to make beer and racking the old fashion way was hard work. When I started wine making (years later) I purchase the all in one wine pump. https://www.allinonewinepump.com. It can be used to rack, degas, filter and headspace remover. It is easy, clean and not loud for a pump. Steve has amazing customer service. Well worth the $.

The carboys in the local store were expensive and cheap compared to when I was making beer. Do yourself a favor and go to craigs list and get an older (thicker) carbo for less money than the local shop will charge ($20 -$25 in my area).

 

[Rick Davis]

You can't vacuum degas in a plastic carboy. As you noted, it sucks the sides of the carboy in rather than pulling the CO2 out of solution. You need to either use a whip in the plastic carboy or transfer to a glass carboy to degas with a vacuum pump.

It seems to me that degassing with a vacuum in a glass carboy is highly dangerous. Glass carboys are not pressure vessels and pulling a vacuum inside means the glass is under pressure beyond atmospheric. If you are pulling enough vacuum to collapse a plastic carboy you are pulling enough to shatter glass. Just my opinion.

 

[DIYer]

It seems to me that degassing with a vacuum in a glass carboy is highly dangerous. Glass carboys are not pressure vessels and pulling a vacuum inside means the glass is under pressure beyond atmospheric. If you are pulling enough vacuum to collapse a plastic carboy you are pulling enough to shatter glass. Just my opinion.

Hand pumps like the VacuVin do not create a strong enough vacuum to be of concern. They were designed for use with wine bottles, which are much thinner than glass carboys.

 

[stickman]

It seems to me that degassing with a vacuum in a glass carboy is highly dangerous. Glass carboys are not pressure vessels and pulling a vacuum inside means the glass is under pressure beyond atmospheric. If you are pulling enough vacuum to collapse a plastic carboy you are pulling enough to shatter glass. Just my opinion.

This has been discussed at great length in many past threads. Good quality carboys manufactured in Mexico or Italy have been used with vacuum without issues, as long as they are without flaws or existing damage; carboys should be visually inspected before each use. Many people have reported in the past that carboys manufactured in China are suspect, having variable thickness and greater number of flaws, though I'm unaware if this is still the case or not.

 

[Johnd]

It seems to me that degassing with a vacuum in a glass carboy is highly dangerous. Glass carboys are not pressure vessels and pulling a vacuum inside means the glass is under pressure beyond atmospheric. If you are pulling enough vacuum to collapse a plastic carboy you are pulling enough to shatter glass. Just my opinion.

I've been pulling nearly 29 inHg vacuums on glass carboys for years, without incident. Experimentally, due to similarly stated concerns, I pulled a vacuum on an empty carboy, also without incident. As @stickman noted above, if you have good quality carboys that don't have defects, it shouldn't be an issue. I don't recall ever seeing a post about a carboy that imploded due to vacuuming.

 

[ZebraB]

I was concerned about using a standard pump for that reason. I'm not a mechanical engineer so better for me to leave this to the experts. The AIO was designed for winemaking. There are other brands but they do not have all the accessories (able to filter and headspace removal) However, if you are concerned with the glass the AIO does have an adjustment for plastic carboys.

https://www.allinonewinepump.com/product/plastic-pet-carboy-transfer-kit/

 

[vacuumpumpman]

The whole entire imploding of a carboy comes up AGAIN -

I know that thermal shock, will crack and destroy a carboy - FACT

Here is a great video = You must watch it all the way to the end

 

[Johnd]

The whole entire imploding of a carboy comes up AGAIN -

I know that thermal shock, will crack and destroy a carboy - FACT

Here is a great video = You must watch it all the way to the end

Well that was a really cool implosion!!! Interesting how many weakened areas he created and still couldn't get it to implode without hurling a battery at it to break the glass. I'd suspect that a carboy is even stronger, the glass piece that he picked up looked to be thinner than a carboy, and the vacuum chamber has no thickened glass ribs in it like a carboy does......

 

[vacuumpumpman]

Well that was a really cool implosion!!! Interesting how many weakened areas he created and still couldn't get it to implode without hurling a battery at it to break the glass. I'd suspect that a carboy is even stronger, the glass piece that he picked up looked to be thinner than a carboy, and the vacuum chamber has no thickened glass ribs in it like a carboy does......

I just knew that the whole carboy implosion would come up again - I wanted to do the same exact test - but someone already beat me to it - LOL

 

[Rice_Guy]

I've been pulling nearly 29 inHg vacuums on glass carboys for years, without incident. Experimentally, due to similarly stated concerns, I pulled a vacuum on an empty carboy, also without incident. As noted above, if you have good quality carboys that don't have defects, it shouldn't be an issue.

* from a practical point of view we can do a horizontal transfer with 5 inches of vacuum. Yes if you have the carboy on the floor and want to lift it to a 4 foot high table 15 to “lots more” Inches vacuum helps. It also creates splatter so I regulate on the lower side of vacuum.
* degassing is a surface area function. The whip moves saturated liquid to the surface where it will naturally degas at atmospheric pressure. Most of the “magic” of the AIO is creating a smaller surface where it will bubble, , even with a 5 inches vacuum transfer. A full carboy takes roughly 20 inches to degas without mechanical mixing.
* 29 inches feels like playing the poop lottery with the grand baby, , , , hopefully my wife wins

 

[vacuumpumpman]

* from a practical point of view we can do a horizontal transfer with 5 inches of vacuum. Yes if you have the carboy on the floor and want to lift it to a 4 foot high table 15 to “lots more” Inches vacuum helps. It also creates splatter so I regulate on the lower side of vacuum.
* degassing is a surface area function. The whip moves saturated liquid to the surface where it will naturally degas at atmospheric pressure. Most of the “magic” of the AIO is creating a smaller surface where it will bubble, , even with a 5 inches vacuum transfer. A full carboy takes roughly 20 inches to degas without mechanical mixing.
* 29 inches feels like playing the poop lottery with the grand baby, , , , hopefully my wife wins

I'm really not sure which point you are trying to get across ?

Degassing does occur below the surface of the liquid as shown in this video with a headspace eliminator attached. It will continue to do this to it reaches approx 14 in hg. (depending on temperature)


It takes alot more than 5 in hg of vacuum to remove CO2 while transferring. The big key to this puzzle is how much LPM does the pump do ? So it can keep up with the vacuum with the additional CO2 being released causing your vacuum pressures not to drop.