Degassing

[vacuumpumpman]

Question for the group = Has anyone else have able to remove CO2 with as little as 5 in hg ( other than Rice_Guy) pulling a straight vacuum in a carboy ?

I have noticed in my years of experience, that it needs to be around 12-14 in hg (depending on temp and other factors) - I do see how you can vacuum rack and the removal of CO2 - while holding and maintaining a steady vacuum around 5 in hg or more. The Allinone can do this because of the LPM it produces and the vacuum it can pull safely. This is why I came up with the Headspace Eliminators - to help others degass there wine safer and easier.[/QUOTE]

 

[Rice_Guy]

HUMM? ,,, the bulb you put on the head space eliminator pulls in at 4 to 5 inches Hg (gives a positive vacuum test).

Question for the group = Has anyone else have able to remove CO2 with as little as 5 in hg ( other than Rice_Guy) pulling a straight vacuum in a carboy ?

I have noticed in my years of experience, that it needs to be around 12-14 in hg (depending on temp and other factors) - I do see how you can vacuum rack and the removal of CO2 - while holding and maintaining a steady vacuum around 5 in hg or more. The Allinone can do this because of the LPM it produces and the vacuum it can pull safely. This is why I came up with the Headspace Eliminators - to help others degass there wine safer and easier.

[/QUOTE]
ie above when defining a good enough job degassing it is saying ”if your head space eliminator bulb holds in for 30 minutes it is good enough that residual gas won’t cause a problem for taste/ bottling/ etc” what I have seen is if it holds 5 inches Hg for 30 minutes (a time function reflecting the whole carboy) it will also pull 25 inches Hg without serious bubbling (a high energy zero time function concentrated on the surface)

 

[vacuumpumpman]

The bulb should not deflate till it reaches approx 10 in hg (when new)

This is what I tell my customers =
When using the headspace eliminator - don't let the pump run longer than 1 minute. The bulb is supposed to be collapsed - that tells you that you have vacuum in your carboy, it will start removing Co2 at 14 in hg and the pump will go down to approx 24 in hg. It will continually will remove CO2 after you shut off the pump and cover the 1 way check valve. This will continue until it reaches 14 in hg and stop pulling Co2 but the headspace is being protected by vacuum and CO2 to protect your wine. It is best to reapply the vacuum to help in the degassing procedure.

I wanted to make this clear for those thinking that a small sampling vacuum pump producing 4-5 in hg will degass their wine - IMHO = IT WILL NOT -
But I decided to ask that question to the Overall Group

 

[cmason1957]

I don't measure the amount of vacuum I pull. I just rack the normal four or five times with my allinonewinepump and i don't have any CO2 left. And then and only then, do I consider not topping up and using a headspace eliminator. Prior to that I top up.

 

[Ajmassa]

If i wanted to measure the vacuum pulled in my carboys, demi’s, and jugs , what’s the exact gauge i’d need to purchase?

There’s so many different types, ranges, oil filled, varying connections, positive pressure only (psi) vacuum hg only, both negative & positive etc etc.

would -30 to +30 be an ideal gauge and any extra connection pieces needed? If not then can someone just tell me what i should buy- I’m not looking for a lesson, just some direction. thanks

 

[vacuumpumpman]

If i wanted to measure the vacuum pulled in my carboys, demi’s, and jugs , what’s the exact gauge i’d need to purchase?

There’s so many different types, ranges, oil filled, varying connections, positive pressure only (psi) vacuum hg only, both negative & positive etc etc.

would -30 to +30 be an ideal gauge and any extra connection pieces needed? If not then can someone just tell me what i should buy- I’m not looking for a lesson, just some direction. thanks

There is really no need to put an inline vacuum gauge - just keep doing what you have been doing - KISS = KEEP IT SIMPLE SILLY

 

[wineview]

All really good ideas. Thank you. I’ve watched multiple videos on degassing with a pump. Here is my problem with that method. In order for it to work the carboy cannot be full. My carboys are within one inch of the neck and I would rather not have to siphon a bit out to accomplish the task. It also seemed that most of the videos if not all, degassed as soon as primary fermentation was finished. My wine has been in secondary for more than five months and racked twice with a dose of kmeta. So my plan is to degass in a bucket a week before bottling probably six months from now. I also learned that temp plays an important role. Does anyone see any problems with this plan that I am not seeing? I just purchased a new wine whip from smartwinemaking.com. It’s all stainless with two chains on the end of the rod to be used with a drill. Also nice to own for those spur of the moment Medieval parties.

 

[RickD]

If i wanted to measure the vacuum pulled in my carboys, demi’s, and jugs , what’s the exact gauge i’d need to purchase?

There’s so many different types, ranges, oil filled, varying connections, positive pressure only (psi) vacuum hg only, both negative & positive etc etc.

would -30 to +30 be an ideal gauge and any extra connection pieces needed? If not then can someone just tell me what i should buy- I’m not looking for a lesson, just some direction. thanks

I put this one on my AIO just for reference so I had at least some idea how much vacuum the pump was pulling: Amazon.com: DuraChoice 2" Utility Vacuum Pressure Gauge, WOG, 1/4" NPT Lwr Mount, 30Hg/30PSI GSAD2012-V30UPD, OEM: Home Improvement . This one is not oil filled because I didn't want to spend that much. Oil-filled can help dampen needle vibration.

This shows an alternative:

 

[Rice_Guy]

* @Ajmassa , the oil filled gauges I have used were on liquid systems as milk or oil pumping lines, there is a stainless diaphragm which flexes conveying pressure which is not the best for measuring an atmosphere. A good vacuum gague for an atmosphere based system is the less expensive brass tube. If properly installed on the top of a carboy or after the AI1 trap it should never get wet. @RickD picked out a suitable one at $7.29, the one googled below is $4.66, it has 1/4 NPT brass thread to which I add a brass tubing connector from the hardware store,, and this has to be sealed with pipe dope or yellow Teflon gas tape.
https://www.zoro.com/zoro-select-vacuum-gauge-test-1-12-in-4flp6/i/G0044755/For the US market 0 to 30 inches of mercury is standard, a second scale is also standard as KpA for reading metric
* the original post from @wineview was asking how long does degassing using atmospheric pressure take? We seem to be off question a bit, I/ we do not have to use vacuum to degas, vacuum is just another excuse for a toy, ,,, and I have periodically posted I like toys so I have several types of vacuum including a 110 volt AC system pump. ,,, the hand pump will do as well just more work.
* I also degas a full carboy like @wineview and he is correct about foam pulling back into to the trap. I have done it, make sure to keep it out of your pump! Steve above wants 14 inches vacuum? well it seems “God would degas at zero inches Hg, either we don’t have patience or we needed an excuse to collect toys”. ,,, To make the toy work with a full carboy I will pulse on and off at low vacuum as five inches Hg. Eventually I can ignore it and let it spin at 25 inches (out of a potential 30). I will achieve a lower residual CO2 than God using zero inches Hg. ,,,, For all of us, using a floor corker anything better than zero inches Hg is overkill

* Rice Guy likes toys so he has a vacuum corking tool. Vacuuming the ullage out makes it obvious that some dissolved CO2 is normal, ,,, and it doesn’t hurt the wine, potentially a little CO2 reduces the oxygen in my ullage which stops bottle shock from happening. ,,,
Most small local wineries have more CO2 than I do after pulsing five inches Hg for an hour.
Seems a little CO2 isn’t that critical for making commercial wine, ,,
again this gets to post number 6 with the definition, GOOD ENOUGH is the wine will maintain a few inches Hg for half an hour.

 

[KCCam]

The bulb should not deflate till it reaches approx 10 in hg (when new)

This is what I tell my customers =
When using the headspace eliminator - don't let the pump run longer than 1 minute. The bulb is supposed to be collapsed - that tells you that you have vacuum in your carboy, it will start removing Co2 at 14 in hg and the pump will go down to approx 24 in hg. It will continually will remove CO2 after you shut off the pump and cover the 1 way check valve. This will continue until it reaches 14 in hg and stop pulling Co2 but the headspace is being protected by vacuum and CO2 to protect your wine. It is best to reapply the vacuum to help in the degassing procedure.

I wanted to make this clear for those thinking that a small sampling vacuum pump producing 4-5 in hg will degas their wine - IMHO = IT WILL NOT -
But I decided to ask that question to the Overall Group

Here's my take on it, purely from how I understand the science. CO2 in solution is an equilibrium based on the partial pressure of CO2 in the air space above the liquid, temperature, and time. Even with NO vacuum, any liquid will reach equilibrium eventually. Agitation increases the rate. Since a vacuum decreases the partial pressure of CO2 above the wine, even 1" Hg vacuum will remove more CO2 than is possible at atmospheric pressure at the same temperature. The higher the amount of vacuum, the less CO2 that can remain in solution, and the higher the rate that excess CO2 comes out of solution. There's no single number. A perfect vacuum will not allow ANY gas in solution, will boil off ANY liquid, and will remove ALL gas, period. Without a perfect vacuum, theoretically there will always be some CO2 dissolved, assuming there is CO2 in the headspace. And I've read that you don't want to remove ALL the CO2 anyway. The goal, in my mind, is to reduce the CO2 to some point below saturation, but not too far below it. At that point there are no bubbles to produce turbulence that prevents clearing. 22" vacuum will remove much more CO2 than necessary, but will do so quickly. 14" is a good compromise. It removes a lot of CO2 (maybe too much) very quickly. 5" vacuum takes longer, but prevents you from overdoing it. If you have the time, forget the vacuum. If you want it done quick, use a tool to improve the efficiency. (Uh, I object to the term "toy." It's a tool.)

 

[Ajmassa]

I put this one on my AIO just for reference so I had at least some idea how much vacuum the pump was pulling: Amazon.com: DuraChoice 2" Utility Vacuum Pressure Gauge, WOG, 1/4" NPT Lwr Mount, 30Hg/30PSI GSAD2012-V30UPD, OEM: Home Improvement . This one is not oil filled because I didn't want to spend that much. Oil-filled can help dampen needle vibration.

This shows an alternative:
View attachment 72353

nice. thanks. that’s the exact one i was leaning towards too.

There is really no need to put an inline vacuum gauge - just keep doing what you have been doing - KISS = KEEP IT SIMPLE SILLY

Agree. Im all about k.i.s.s. I have no real intention here tbh. Plus I don’t intentionally degas ever. I like the co2 for protection. Just been meaning to get myself one for a while. If you think i’m trying to get all technical full on nerding-out riceguy mythbusters style you are mistaken lol.

And there’s been plenty of things I utilize despite not necessarily needing—a stopcock burette & stand, a refractometer etc. Then again some others collect dust— vinometer, bottling wand, my PET carboys etc etc. A vacuum gauge may come in handy one day. ordering one now.

** appreciate the detailed reply @Rice_Guy

 

[KCCam]

A vacuum gauge may come in handy one day. ordering one now.

Personally, I much prefer a gauge showing how much vacuum there is than JUST a yes/no indication. The bulb is handy because you can see it across the room, but who would be happy with a weather report saying it's "too hot" or "not hot enough"? I want to know HOW hot. Well, I live in Canada, so change that to how COLD! Speaking of which, it's 27°F out there right now. Time to break out the SHORTS!!! And the sunscreen.

 

[bstnh1]

I use time and test for gas by tasting the wine. There's also a test you can do where you shake the wine in a bottle with your thumb over it, and if there's suction there's gas.

I believe you mean if there's pressure, there's gas.

 

[BMarNJ]

For those who use a Vacuvin hand pump, these carboy tops work well. The Vacuvin cork fits nicely over the larger opening, no alteration neeeded.

 

[Dom Lausic]

Hey All! Has anyone degassed using the Enolmatic Bottle Filler? I see mention of the All In One WIne Pump. But wanted to know if the Enolmatic would work?? I'm not much of an engineer in this regard.......

 

[KCCam]

Hey All! Has anyone degassed using the Enolmatic Bottle Filler? I see mention of the All In One WIne Pump. But wanted to know if the Enolmatic would work?? I'm not much of an engineer in this regard.......

According to the description, it can pull wine from 4 m below an empty bottle. That indicates a vacuum of over 11.5” Hg, which is about half as much vacuum as the AIO can pull, plenty enough to speed up degassing I would think. My only caution is that the system may not be designed for the possibility of a large amount of foam being sucked into the vacuum hose. ANY liquid that gets sucked into the pump could damage it. The Enolmatic cautions about use with sugary liquids requiring a special filter to protect the pump. Make sure the vacuum hose leading directly to the pump is sucking air out of a separate “overflow” chamber from the top, and that the hose from the carboy would deliver any liquid or foam into the overflow chamber some distance below the top. Look at a picture of the AIO setup to see what I mean.

 

[hounddawg]

a year will degas anything I've ever made, and as mentioned above some type vacuum will greatly speed up degassing
Dawg