EC-1118 slow?

[rhodesengr]

Making plum wine. I direct added EC 1118 and after 24 hours fermentation seems very slow. Barely noticeable. SG is 1.094. pH is 3.22.

Thought I posted a much more detailed thread but now it's gone.

 

[cmason1957]

If by direct added, you mean you just sprinkled the yeast into your must, you probability have another 2 days before you have active fermentation going. Nothing to worry about until then.

Most of us have discovered that making an overnight starter of yeast and nutrients helps the yeast to start much faster.

 

[BigDaveK]

I don't always check SG on the 2nd day because I know the change will be very small. The yeast are busy, waking up, getting used to a new home, decorating. After 24 hours my fermentations are sometimes robust, sometimes "barely noticeable". The important point is that it IS noticeable, it's happening.

And like many here, I've had 3-day ferments and I've had 10-day ferments.

I see this is your first post. Welcome to WMT! Are you a new or old wine maker? (I'm an old new wine maker. )

 

[winemaker81]

Additionally, temperature, must composition (SG, acid, etc.) all affect fermentation start and progress.

 

[rhodesengr]

Thanks guys. Look like my longer, more detailed post got flagged for review, maybe because I linked the source of the recipe. I found the text in my cache and I will add it below without the external link.
As of this morning, my must is fermenting. The data sheet fpor EC-1118 does say low foaming and It am not seeing much if any foam so maybe that is just how this yeast performs.

If by direct added, you mean you just sprinkled the yeast into your must, you probability have another 2 days before you have active fermentation going. Nothing to worry about until then.

Most of us have discovered that making an overnight starter of yeast and nutrients helps the yeast to start much faster.

Yes. I was following a recipe I found on a different website. It said to just sprinkle the yeast on top. I did some searching on Yeast Starter. I found a lot of discussion but not much in the way of detailed recipe for how to make a starter. I found two different data sheets for EC-1118. One says this:
"LALVIN EC 1118 yeast should be stirred into 10:1 must/water mixture at 86 – 95 °F (30 – 35 °C), stirred again after approximately 20 minutes and then added to the must or wine"
I wasn't sure if they meant1 part must to 10 parts water or as it seems to say, 10 parts must to 1 part water. Not sure what adding only 10% water does. The packet and the other version of the data sheet says this:
"Rehydrate the yeast in 50ml of water, at a temperature between 35-37°C (95-98.6°F)."
No mention of must. I have another batch that gets yeast tonight so I think I will follow this second rehydration

I see this is your first post. Welcome to WMT! Are you a new or old wine maker? (I'm an old new wine maker. )

Yes. First post. Thanks. this is actually my second thread. I had a much more detailed post before this one that seems to have been flagged (probably due to an external link). I explained a lot more about what I am doing and my previous experience. I am going to try and post the text below but without the external link to the recipe.

 

[rhodesengr]

text from my original post sans the link to the plum wine recipe.

Hi. This is my first post on the forum. I made wine a number of years ago; technically I guess it was mead because it was just fermented, diluted honey. This was before internet. I has some books and a hydrometer and that was about it. I diluted the honey to 24% sugar, threw in some yeast, did a primary ferment in a polyethylene trash can and then a secondary fermentation in a 5 gallon water bottle. It came out pretty good. I tried making wine with peaches and it came out terrible. I don't recall if I had any recipe to work from.

So now I am trying to make plum wine. I have a single plum tree and it produces a huge number of nice, purple, tasty plums. I get so many plums, I can't even give them all away so I decided to get back into wine making. I found some recipes online. So far I have picked three, 5 gallon buckets and its barely made a dent.

I bought EC-1118 yeast and all the additives listed in the recipe. The recipe calls for 5 pounds of plums and 1.2kg of sugar per gallon of water. I made a total of using 25 pounds of plums and 5 gallons of water split between two pails. The initial SG was a little lower than I wanted (1.074) so I added some more sugar and brought the SG up to 1.094. I happen to own a pH meter and the must without any additives was about 3.45 and with the acid blend added, it came down to 3.22. When I look up what pH should be, I see a range of 3.0 to 3.5 so pH seems OK.

The instructions say to just sprinkle the yeast into the must so that's what I did. It's been 24 hours since I added the first packet (half packet into each of the two 5-gallon pails. This morning, I didn't see much activity so I added another half packet per pail so each pail now has one full packet. I am seeing some signs of mild fermentation but nothing like I got back when I made mead where there was a lot of foam and the fermentation was very obvious. I just don't know what to expect with EC-1118. Should the fermentation look more obvious? Does it just take more than 24 hours to get going?

I have seen some discussion about directly adding yeast vs rehydration. I understand the rehydration must be done exactly as direted on the package. I can certainly do that going forward but didn't so far. Maybe that is the problem?

This is also the first time I have used something to kill the wild yeasts. Rather than actual Campden tablets I bought powdered potassium meta-bisulphate. The package said to dose 1/4 teaspoon per 6 gallons. I am close to that in each pail between the plums and added water/sugar so that's how much I added per pail. I waited 24 hours before adding the yeast. Maybe that wasn't long enough? I read up on EC-1118 and it does claim to be low foaming but what I am seeing is almost no foaming at this point.
Is slow, subtle fermentation normal for EC-1118?
Should I have rehydrated the years?
Was my kMBS still active and killed the first packet of yeast?

Thanks for any insight.

 

[Ohio Bob]

EC1118 is a workhorse yeast, it will power through most things that give other yeasts issues. Even Kmeta.

Depending on how clean your fruit is, adding Kmeta 24 hours in advance is somewhat optional. If it’s fruit picked off the ground or some damage, Kmeta is good insurance. I would add Kmeta to the fruit must, while separately start making a yeast starter.

The way I make my yeast starter is to microwave 50ml of water that has 1 tsp of table sugar in it. When it cools to 100F I add 1/2 tsp of GoFerm and the yeast packet. I put a piece of aluminum foil loosely over the top.

When it’s time to pitch give the starter some good spins or stir it with a sanitized spoon. Give the must a few good stirs as well to get oxygen into the must. Then gently pour the yeast starter into the must trying to keep the yeast all in one place on the surface. Accuracy is not critical, it will still work. The thought is the yeast still need lots of oxygen to reproduce so being at the surface helps. Give the must 12-24 hours before any more stirring, then stir at least twice a day, punching down the cap to keep it moist.

Back to Kmeta and your fruit. When I pick wild blackberries they get water rinsed and go straight to the freezer. I’m fairly confident that damaged fruit, bugs, leaves, etc is relatively low. But not 100%. I take the berries out of the freezer, then start my yeast starter. 24 hours later my berries have thawed and my yeast is ready. With this protocol I do not use Kmeta in my must.

 

[rhodesengr]

EC1118 is a workhorse yeast, it will power through most things that give other yeasts issues. Even Kmeta.
.

Thanks for this. I do have some questions about Kmeta which I did use. I am wondering if the KMeta is slowing down my start-up. Freezing is not really an option for me as I just don't have any room in my freezer. I just have one plum tree but we are talking about a lot of plums. I already have filled three Home Depot pails. I weighed them and they each hold about 30 pounds of plums. This barely made a dent in what is still on the tree.

Back in May, I read up on making plum wine, found a few different recipes to use as starting point. I read up on Campden tablets, Kmeta, and NaMeta. Rather than buying actual tablets, I bought a package of bulk Kmeta. The package says the recommended dose is 1/4 tsp per 6 gallons. My understanding is that one actual tablet contains 1/16 tsp of NaMeta. I am unclear whether the volume to use is based on just the added water or the total volume including the fruit. My total volume per pail including water, fruit, and sugar was a bit over 5 gallons so I did add a full 1/4tsp of Kmeta. I am wondering if that was too much. If dose was supposed to be based on just water added, that was 2.5 gallons per pail. So that would be 5/32tsp. So maybe I added 3/32tsp too much. Would that make a difference in startup after 24 hours? I don't actually use fractional tsp measurements down to 1/32. I have a milligram scale and I weighed 1/4tsp and divided by 6 to get the suggested dose per gallon. I can easily weigh-out very small amounts. But with all that said, these are my questions about Kmeta

What happens during the 24 hour waiting period between adding KMeta and adding yeast? Does the KMeta dissipate or does it stay in the must ?
Asked another way, is the 24 hours to allow the Kmeta to dissipate or allow it to work on the wild yeast?
Do I dose based on total volume or just added water?
If I add more than the suggested dose, would that impact the yeast 24 hours later?
Is 1/4tsp per 6 gallons a good dose or should I be using a different dose for initial prep of the must.

Thanks for any help with this. I just like to understand all the details. I have been accused of over-thinking things which I am ok with

 

[winemaker81]

What happens during the 24 hour waiting period between adding KMeta and adding yeast? Does the KMeta dissipate or does it stay in the must ?

K-meta functions by combining with contaminants (generic term for anything bad for winemaking), rendering that free SO2 and the contaminant inert, so the free SO2 gets used up. The sulfite is still in the wine, but in other forms than free SO2. Waiting 24 hours gives K-meta the opportunity to do its job, and while commercial yeast are generally K-meta tolerant, waiting reduces the free SO2 so the yeast doesn't have to deal with it as much.

 

[Jovimaple]

Welcome to WMT!

 

[rhodesengr]

K-meta functions by combining with contaminants (generic term for anything bad for winemaking), rendering that free SO2 and the contaminant inert, so the free SO2 gets used up. The sulfite is still in the wine, but in other forms than free SO2. Waiting 24 hours gives K-meta the opportunity to do its job, and while commercial yeast are generally K-meta tolerant, waiting reduces the free SO2 so the yeast doesn't have to deal with it as much.

got it. Thanks. I think a lot of it just I don't know what a "normal" fermentation with EC-1118 is supposed to look like.

 

[rhodesengr]

Welcome to WMT!

Thanks

 

[winemaker81]

got it. Thanks. I think a lot of it just I don't know what a "normal" fermentation with EC-1118 is supposed to look like.

The problem is that "normal" is a very wine range. As I mentioned in a previous post, there are numerous variables that can all affect the fermentation.

Like @Ohio Bob, I make an yeast starter. In the past I simply rehydrated the yeast, but making an overnight starter has produced a tremendous difference. My method is posted here:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/how-to-make-a-yeast-starter/
I've been doing this for 2 years and am sold on the technique. When I inoculate, I can smell fermentation within 6 hours, sometimes sooner. I may not see any activity, but my nose knows. By the next morning, the fermentation is visibly under way.

 

[rhodesengr]

The problem is that "normal" is a very wine range. As I mentioned in a previous post, there are numerous variables that can all affect the fermentation.

Like @Ohio Bob, I make an yeast starter. In the past I simply rehydrated the yeast, but making an overnight starter has produced a tremendous difference. My method is posted here:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/how-to-make-a-yeast-starter/
I've been doing this for 2 years and am sold on the technique. When I inoculate, I can smell fermentation within 6 hours, sometimes sooner. I may not see any activity, but my nose knows. By the next morning, the fermentation is visibly under way.

Thanks for the link to make Starter. Just to be methodical, I am going to try rehydration per the packet first and then try your starter. I just want to see what the difference is for my actual musts.

 

[Raptor99]

Like @winemaker81, I make a yeast starter. But I only let it go overnight if there are difficult fermentation conditions, e.g. cranberry wine due to low pH. Yesterday evening I started a batch of traditional mead. I hydrated D47 yeast with GoFerm starting at 95 degrees F for 30 minutes. Then I stirred and added an equal volume of must. After 90 minutes when I stirred it there were plenty of bubbles, so it was fermenting. I added the starter to the must. This morning when I stirred the mead it was fermenting well. So for me most of the time it works to do 30 minutes w/ GoFerm plus 90 minutes or so after adding some must.

BTW, my yeast was stored in the fridge. I took it out about 4 hours before use to warm up to room temperature.

@rhodesengr I have noticed that on most yeast packages there are instructions on the packet to direct pitch or hydrate with warm water. But when you go to the manufacturer's website they say to hydrate it with GoFerm for best results. But I do pay attention to the recommended temperature for hydration on the package. Getting that right makes a bit difference. Usually it is something like 95-100 degrees F.

The reason to add an equal volume of must 30 minutes after rehydrating with GoFerm is to acclimate the yeast to the fermentation conditions, including pH and SG. You want to avoid shocking the yeast when you add them to the must.

 

[David Violante]

Welcome to WMT!

 

[rhodesengr]

First two pails are now going like gangbusters. Batch number 2 gets yeast in the morning using factory specified rehydration. #2 is 10 pounds of plums and 2 gallons of water. I think that is what I will keep doing. Batch #3, is cooling down from boiled sugar water and will get KMET in the morning. 10 pounds is about all I can do in an evening. Its just an overwhelming amount of plums on one tree. Batches 1and 2 I used mesh bags in the pails. Starting with batch 3, I am dropping the mesh bag. I think I will just filter going into secondary.

 

[Jovimaple]

@rhodesengr If you have more mesh bags, you might be better off using them. I made tomato wine with and without a mesh bag. My racking cane kept clogging on the batch without a bag. For me, It ended up being more of a pain at racking than it was to deal with the bag in the first place. But maybe your experience will be different. Either way, welcome back to winemaking!

 

[rhodesengr]

@rhodesengr If you have more mesh bags, you might be better off using them. I made tomato wine with and without a mesh bag. My racking cane kept clogging on the batch without a bag. For me, It ended up being more of a pain at racking than it was to deal with the bag in the first place. But maybe your experience will be different. Either way, welcome back to winemaking!

I do have more bags but they fill with gas and float to the surface so I am concerned that will cause problems. I have been pushing them back under twice a day. My plan without bags, would be a two step process. When it is time to rack, I will put a bag in another bucket, pour the must into the bag in the second bucket, then lift that bad out, and only then siphon into the secondary. Basically just use the bag as a filter just before racking.
Here are a couple of photos of my must in buckets with bags. First is actively fermenting. The second, I just added yeast





and here is a batch I started last night with no bag

.

 

[winemaker81]

I do have more bags but they fill with gas and float to the surface so I am concerned that will cause problems.

That is normal. Any fruit solids will float high due to the CO2 emitted by the yeast. Read the Grape Winemaking forum, you'll see comments about punching down. When fermenting grapes, I push the "cap" down 2 or 3 times per day.

Pouring the wine through a bag will work. You can also wrap a bag around the cane to keep chunks out.

Below is a very high-tech jig I constructed at little expense. ( ) I wrap it in a fine mesh bag and put the racking cane inside the jib to filter everything except really fine sediment.