The original post is here: Plum wine: EC-1118 seems slow
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EC-1118 slow?
- Thread starter rhodesengr
- Start date
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Inspired by your example, I bought some 2" PVC pipe. Now I just need to cut it and drill some holes...That is normal. Any fruit solids will float high due to the CO2 emitted by the yeast. Read the Grape Winemaking forum, you'll see comments about punching down. When fermenting grapes, I push the "cap" down 2 or 3 times per day.
Pouring the wine through a bag will work. You can also wrap a bag around the cane to keep chunks out.
Below is a very high-tech jig I constructed at little expense. () I wrap it in a fine mesh bag and put the racking cane inside the jib to filter everything except really fine sediment.
View attachment 103108
Everything is looking great!
About the floating bags -
I use them now and then because they make transfer easier or squeezing small stuff easier.And they tend to float. But keep in mind, there's no law that says they have to be closed. I often just line the bucket with the bag, close it if I want to do some squeezing and then re-open. That's what I'm currently doing with elderberries.
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I can now say I am a "starter solution believer". I've had a chance now to compare dry-casting, OEM rehydration, and starter solution. Maybe not surprisingly, OEM rehydration works almost as well, maybe the same. Rehydration per the EC-1118 data sheet added in the morning was starting to ferment by the time I got home after work and was clearly going the following morning. I added starter solution last night to two batches, one new (24 hours after K-Meta and one that I accidently dosed with K-Meta again at 24 hours and I added Starter at 48 hours. Both were clearly fermenting this morning so about 12 hours.
One thing I am not clear about is the long wait before using the starter. I boiled 8oz of water, added 6tbsp of sugar, added the EC-1118 when the water had cooled down to 98.6 degrees (label rehydration temp) and waited a few hours until the mix was close to room temp. The foaming started very quickly but after about 3 hours, it seemed to be slowing down. So not sure what one gains by waiting 12 to 24 hours per that article.
I think I am going back to using bags. Much harder to sample the liquid when it's comixed with fruit pulp.
Ohio Bob
Senior Member
For 5 gallons 1 tsp of sugar is recommended.
That is very different that the reference in post #22. I understand this is the nature of forums once you diverge from the manufactured TDS. Five mpeople with have five different response.
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The yeast need time to grow the colony, so waiting is just giving that some time to occur.
Also, if I use kmeta in the must before beginning, I wait at least 12 hours after I have stirred that in to make sure it has done its job but won't kill off my yeast. So if I make my starter at the same time as I am getting the must ready, the starter yeast colony has time to grow a bit and the kmeta has time to kill off the nasties I don't want in the must.
Also, if I use kmeta in the must before beginning, I wait at least 12 hours after I have stirred that in to make sure it has done its job but won't kill off my yeast. So if I make my starter at the same time as I am getting the must ready, the starter yeast colony has time to grow a bit and the kmeta has time to kill off the nasties I don't want in the must.
FWK says 18-24 hours.
I start around 6 pm and inoculate the following day at 7am. As Joni said, it gives the colony more time to grow, so the initial colony is a LOT larger so fermentation takes off faster.
I get the idea for sure. Hard to know how many live vs dead cells are in there at any given time. I guess my concern was that I see the activity (foaming) slow down after a few hours. My worry was that if you wait 12-24 hours, all the sugar has been used up and the yeasts might be dying off. Hard to tell if that is happening or not. I've done a few batches this way. I add the yeast when the boiled water/sugar cools down to 98.6. I have now added the starter after a couple hours and also after about 8 hours. It didn't seem to make much difference. I added the 8 hour stuff to a pail last night and could see some fermentation in about 2 hours. It was solid this morning I started two jars this morning which I will add when I get home to a couple of pails I set up yesterday afternoon. Those two starters will have been working for about 10 hours.
I have a total of 6 pails going now; all happily bubbling away. I do appreciate all the help here. I am continuing to refine my process.
The time to add the starter to the wine is when there is a healthy yeast colony and it has not yet run out of food (sugar) or nutrients. Yeast do not look at a clock, so any guidelines for a certain number of hours are only a rough approximation.
Factors that influence when your starter is ready to pitch:
* The type of yeast
* The amount of yeast added in relation to the volume of the starter
* The amount of sugar and nutrients in the starter
* Whether there are adequate micro-nutrients needed by the yeast (Go-Ferm is a great option to provide this)
* The temperature
* The pH
* Whether Dionysis is feeling happy at the time
Carefully watching the progress of the yeast is a better indicator then watching the clock. But different types of yeast produce different amounts of foam, so that could be misleading. I once waited nearly for 24 hours to get some D47 started because I didn't see any foam. Eventually I decided that I had waited too long, because it started to develop H2S odors. You can't always see any foam, but if it is fermenting, it generally will release CO2 bubbles when you stir it.
I should mention that my starters are not that large a volume. A larger volume of starter will take a longer time to reach peak yeast activity. What I usually do, based on the manufacturer's instructions, is to add 6.25 g of Go-Ferm to 125 ml of warm water for one 5 g packet of yeast. Once it is fermenting, I add 125 ml of must and stir. So my total starter volume is 250 ml. On rare occations with a must that has difficult fermentation conditions (e.g. cranberry), I add additional must in several stages (doubling the volume each time) and possibly let it work overnight.
Factors that influence when your starter is ready to pitch:
* The type of yeast
* The amount of yeast added in relation to the volume of the starter
* The amount of sugar and nutrients in the starter
* Whether there are adequate micro-nutrients needed by the yeast (Go-Ferm is a great option to provide this)
* The temperature
* The pH
* Whether Dionysis is feeling happy at the time
Carefully watching the progress of the yeast is a better indicator then watching the clock. But different types of yeast produce different amounts of foam, so that could be misleading. I once waited nearly for 24 hours to get some D47 started because I didn't see any foam. Eventually I decided that I had waited too long, because it started to develop H2S odors. You can't always see any foam, but if it is fermenting, it generally will release CO2 bubbles when you stir it.
I would add the starter to the wine when the yeast are at peak activity, not when they are slowing down due to lack of sugar or nutrients. At that point, they are already starting to go dormant. In my opinion, if the starter is fermenting vigorously, it is time to add it. For a batch of peach wine that I started this week using K1-V1116, the starter was clearly fermenting 20 minutes after I hydrated the yeast using 96 degree F water and Go-Ferm. Then I added an equal volume of must, and 20 minutes later it was again fermenting vigorously, so I added it to the must. But on other occasions it has taken several hours to get to that point.
I should mention that my starters are not that large a volume. A larger volume of starter will take a longer time to reach peak yeast activity. What I usually do, based on the manufacturer's instructions, is to add 6.25 g of Go-Ferm to 125 ml of warm water for one 5 g packet of yeast. Once it is fermenting, I add 125 ml of must and stir. So my total starter volume is 250 ml. On rare occations with a must that has difficult fermentation conditions (e.g. cranberry), I add additional must in several stages (doubling the volume each time) and possibly let it work overnight.
I got a hold of some Fermaid O. Dang, that stuff is amazing. I added 1 tsp to a 5 gallon pail of fermenting must and the foam level increased almost immediately. I wasn't expecting such a dramatic change. 1tsp is about half the suggested dose for 5 gallons. When I set up my pails I used "Yeast Nutrient" from North Mountain which is DAP and Urea. next year, I am going to use Fermaid O from the get-go.
Fermaid O is a much more complete nutrient than "yeast nutrient."
The foam you saw was probably due to CO2 bubbles forming around the particles of Ferm-O. Any sort of powder that you stir into the must will have the same effect. That's one reason to do primary fermentation in a bucket, with plenty of room for foam when you stir it and/or add nutrients.
The foam you saw was probably due to CO2 bubbles forming around the particles of Ferm-O. Any sort of powder that you stir into the must will have the same effect. That's one reason to do primary fermentation in a bucket, with plenty of room for foam when you stir it and/or add nutrients.
I started a batch yesterday and used Go Ferm for the first time. The TDS says to use 1.25 grams of GF per gram of yeast. Right or wrong, here is what I did.
I boiled about 12 oz of water in a Mason Jar.
I let it cool a little bit (down to about 150F) and added the Go Ferm. You sort of shake it to make a suspension.
When the temp reach 98.6, I added the yeast (basically rehydration per the TDS)
After 20 minutes I added 4 tbsp of sugar.
I let it fully cool to room temp and sit for about 4 hours.
I added to the must at 11PM last night and there is clearly fermentation this morning.
Fermaid O TDS says to add first dose 24 hours after adding yeast.
My previous starter solution had the sugar in the water from the start and a DAP/Urea nutrient and no separate rehydration step. I could see a difference. The basic starter solution foamed up more than the Go Ferm process I used this time. With Go Ferm, I could see obvious fermentation in the jar, just not as foamy. I don't know which method is better, but I will stick with this Go Ferm stater because it is pretty much what the data sheets for EC1118 and Go Ferm say to do. I guess it's a case of "RTFM"
Overall, thing are going well. I have one more batch do set up today. I have about 20 gallons already in secondary, and some batches at various stages in primary. I did get a refractometer and really like it. Seems to give a more accurate reading of the sugar compared to a floating hydrometer. The float get affected by bubbles and surface tension. I guess they both have their place. I did some comparison between the float and the refractometer on batches that are close to being done in primary. Using the available compensation calculators, the numbers were not exactly the same but pretty close.
I boiled about 12 oz of water in a Mason Jar.
I let it cool a little bit (down to about 150F) and added the Go Ferm. You sort of shake it to make a suspension.
When the temp reach 98.6, I added the yeast (basically rehydration per the TDS)
After 20 minutes I added 4 tbsp of sugar.
I let it fully cool to room temp and sit for about 4 hours.
I added to the must at 11PM last night and there is clearly fermentation this morning.
Fermaid O TDS says to add first dose 24 hours after adding yeast.
My previous starter solution had the sugar in the water from the start and a DAP/Urea nutrient and no separate rehydration step. I could see a difference. The basic starter solution foamed up more than the Go Ferm process I used this time. With Go Ferm, I could see obvious fermentation in the jar, just not as foamy. I don't know which method is better, but I will stick with this Go Ferm stater because it is pretty much what the data sheets for EC1118 and Go Ferm say to do. I guess it's a case of "RTFM"
Overall, thing are going well. I have one more batch do set up today. I have about 20 gallons already in secondary, and some batches at various stages in primary. I did get a refractometer and really like it. Seems to give a more accurate reading of the sugar compared to a floating hydrometer. The float get affected by bubbles and surface tension. I guess they both have their place. I did some comparison between the float and the refractometer on batches that are close to being done in primary. Using the available compensation calculators, the numbers were not exactly the same but pretty close.
I'm glad it worked out - though for future reference that temperature at which you dissolved the GoFerm is a bit high. Here is the protocol from Scott Labs ( though much larger scale than most home winemakers!):
https://scottlab.com/saccharomyces-yeast-rehydration
For small scale I like to put my starter culture vessel in a water bath at the appropriate temperature. If you're working on the liter scale it holds temperature pretty well while the yeast is hydrating, but smaller volumes tend to cool down faster.
after the initial 20 minutes rehydration I typically remove from the water bath and add some must/juice to the starter culture until its temperature is within 10C/18F of the bulk must/juice - then pitch the starter.
OK thanks for that. I thought I saw somewhere it said to add Go Ferm while "hot". Probably got that wrong.
yup. 110F. Its right on the TDS.
I have a question about pectic enzyme timing. I am seeing conflicting information about when to add it relative to when I processed the fruit. My original recipe says to wait 12 hours. My bag from LD Carlson says to wait until 1 hour before yeast. So that would be like 23 hours after processing the fruit. From a blog online "As for winemaking, the optimum time to add pectic enzyme is right after crushing the fruit and before pressing. By breaking down the pectin cells at this stage, you are allowing more juice to release from the fruit’s fiber"
What is the thinking behind these different delays. If it's breaking down the fruit, why not just add it when I add KMeta to the new must? Why wait 12 or 23 hours?
What is the thinking behind these different delays. If it's breaking down the fruit, why not just add it when I add KMeta to the new must? Why wait 12 or 23 hours?
This does not make sense to me. I add pectic enzyme to my fruit before freezing, to give it the maximum time to work. Once the yeast start to produce alcohol, the pectic enzyme becomes less effective.
There is a concern that Kmeta will interfere with the function of pectic enzyme, so sometimes it is recommended to wait 12 hours after adding Kmeta to the crushed fruit before adding pectic enzyme. Luc Volders did an experiment on this and determined that the amounts of Kmeta we add to the fruit does not significantly affect the work of pectic enzyme. Here's the link: Avonturen op het pecto pad deel 2 /<br>Adventures on the pectic path part 2 (scroll down for the English translation). So now I add pectic enzyme as early as possible.
Ohio Bob
Senior Member
Agreed. I use Llalzyme EX with my blackberries. I freeze the berries, thaw, add the EX, and prepare a yeast starter. 24 hours later I pitch the yeast. I do not use Kmeta at this point. After fermentation started I could barely perceive a cap, the must was just total mush. I think the EX is pretty good.
