Ewwww, it Stinks!

[sour_grapes]

Johnd, I don't disagree with your statement but its just that these copper scrubbers are likely to release microscopic amounts of Cu into the wine, almost certainly less than the amounts of copper that copper pots release into acidic sauces during cooking. AND the amount of time the copper is in the wine is short, minutes, not days or weeks.
I also agree that Reduless is a better solution BUT the longer the H2S remains in solution the more likely it is to bind and become mercaptans and mercaptans, for all intents and purposes are not repairable

No one uses unlined copper cookware for acidic food. Unlined copper has a MINOR role for use in beating eggs and melting sugar. For everything else, tin has been used to line copper cookware, literally for centuries.

 

[CoteRotie]

Silver will react with H2S as well, so if you can find some of those silver scrubbers the Ag2S that drops out is a lot less toxic than copper sulfides.

Actually a bunch of fine uncoated silver plated wire used in jewelry making might work, but Reduless is a lot easier.

 

[Johnd]

Johnd, I don't disagree with your statement but its just that these copper scrubbers are likely to release microscopic amounts of Cu into the wine, almost certainly less than the amounts of copper that copper pots release into acidic sauces during cooking. AND the amount of time the copper is in the wine is short, minutes, not days or weeks.
I also agree that Reduless is a better solution BUT the longer the H2S remains in solution the more likely it is to bind and become mercaptans and mercaptans, for all intents and purposes are not repairable

I understand your position, and respect the fact that you've got lots of experience doing it that way, and recognize the fact that anyone can handle H2S in any fashion he/she feels is appropriate. As long as the winemaker understands the risks and alternatives for handling H2S with the available methods, the informed decision is theirs.

I liken it to the addition of chlorine to make water safe to drink. There's a proper dosage per gallon that will make the water safe and keep the chlorine levels below levels where it could be detrimental to my health. I'd choose the controlled, minimum dosage to purify the water over dropping a large chlorine tablet into the water for a period of time and not knowing if not enough or too much had leached into the water. It just feels safer to me.

That said, personally, my process would be the one that yields an H2S free wine with the minimum addition of copper, which is achieved by known, controlled doses until it is gone, no more, no less. Just my two cents.

 

[BernardSmith]

Totally agree with you here. TOTALLY. I cannot recall the last time that I have had to deal with H2S. Sure there are yeasts that are H2S super-producers but I have no good reason to select those and when it comes to stressing my yeast I know that yeast are perfect karmic creatures. You stress them and they stress you, so I spend time nurturing and not stressing my yeast. The best treatment for H2S is to avoid it altogether. But none of that helps someone who has fallen foul of their treatment of their yeast. And my remarks are never to be viewed as the first thing to try. More like the last resorts when splash racking and and whipping air into the wine has failed.

 

[Bossbaby]

Johnd, I don't disagree with your statement but its just that these copper scrubbers are likely to release microscopic amounts of Cu into the wine, almost certainly less than the amounts of copper that copper pots release into acidic sauces during cooking. AND the amount of time the copper is in the wine is short, minutes, not days or weeks.
I also agree that Reduless is a better solution BUT the longer the H2S remains in solution the more likely it is to bind and become mercaptans and mercaptans, for all intents and purposes are not repairable

what effects do the copper water piping in your house have on an individual with that theory?

 

[BernardSmith]

what effects do the copper water piping in your house have on an individual with that theory?

um, not a physical scientist but that "theory" is not so much a theory as a fact: copper sulfate, in significant quantities , is toxic to humans. Not copper, but copper sulfate, and we are deliberately producing microscopic quantities of copper sulfate - that is why and how the sulfur hydroxide is neutralized. BUT your copper pipes at home are not in contact with much sulfur are they? What sulfurous compounds are you concocting, Bossbaby? I mean , if you were satan that might be another story but I hear that satan is immune to the toxicity of copper sulfate.

 

[hounddawg]

what effects do the copper water piping in your house have on an individual with that theory?

water aint wine
whew,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Dawg,,

 

[sour_grapes]

what effects do the copper water piping in your house have on an individual with that theory?

As @hounddawg sagely notes, water ain't wine. From a post elsewhere: Poll for those knowledgeable on methods to eliminate H2S, comments please.

----------------

I find graphs like this one convincing:

Note that the y-axis is logarithmic, and that the lowest pH on that graph is about 5.5. Wine is about 100x more acidic at pH of ~3.6.

I cribbed this figure from a 3rd source, but apparently it is from:
"A practical guide for determining the solubility of metal hydroxides and oxides in water," Dyer, James A.; Scrivner, Noel C.; Dentel, Steven K. E.I. DuPont de Nemours and Co., Wilmington, DE, USA. Environmental Progress (1998), 17(1), 1-8.

 

[Bossbaby]

um, not a physical scientist but that "theory" is not so much a theory as a fact: copper sulfate, in significant quantities , is toxic to humans. Not copper, but copper sulfate, and we are deliberately producing microscopic quantities of copper sulfate - that is why and how the sulfur hydroxide is neutralized. BUT your copper pipes at home are not in contact with much sulfur are they? What sulfurous compounds are you concocting, Bossbaby? I mean , if you were satan that might be another story but I hear that satan is immune to the toxicity of copper sulfate.

Many homes on well water systems experience iron bacteria which produces huge amounts of hydrogen sulfide especially in there hot water so yep copper pipes in many homes experience contact with sulfer.

 

[Bossbaby]

Many homes on well water systems experience iron bacteria which produces huge amounts of hydrogen sulfide especially in there hot water so yep copper pipes in many homes experience contact with sulfer.
I'm just wondering if putting a small length of copper pipe into a carboy would remove a little egg smell my elderberry wine has developed?

 

[sour_grapes]

I'm just wondering if putting a small length of copper pipe into a carboy would remove a little egg smell my elderberry wine has developed?

Yes, yes, it probably would. At the cost of introducing an unknown amount of copper.

There are ways of introducing a KNOWN amount of copper to bind your eggy-smelling H2S. My personal recommendation is a product called Reduless: Reduless | MoreWine

 

[Bossbaby]

Yes, yes, it probably would. At the cost of introducing an unknown amount of copper.

There are ways of introducing a KNOWN amount of copper to bind your eggy-smelling H2S. My personal recommendation is a product called Reduless: Reduless | MoreWine

sounds good thank you for your response..

 

[cmason1957]

I haven't jumped into this discussion of copper, yet. But since I am back at work today, what better time?? I'll speak for others on here as well as myself and if I don't, please let me know and I'll make these words disappear. None of us are against using copper to remove the rotten egg smell, unfortunately, it is what you got to use. What we are against is putting an unknown amount of copper into your wine. Copper is toxic at somewhat low levels, so you always want to know exactly how little you can put in to remove the smell and use no more than that. Really you don't want to ever have to deal with the issue, but I'm pretty certain we all have at least once.

So we recommend the safest, lowest level. Use Reduless as Paul gave a link for, which is a known small amount, can be used twice in the same wine and not exceed maximum levels or resort to Copper Sulfate Bench Trials and determine the smallest dosage possible.