Other Extended Maceration Eclipse Lodi 11 Cab

[SouthernChemist]

Those look nice especially for some EM. I wonder how well EM works with frozen must? Probably pretty good...

Ciao!
-johann

In principle, you already will have greater extraction from frozen must/skins. If the must was frozen with grape skins present, then you basically have a nice cold soak of the grapes. The freezing process also helps break down the skins. It is not the traditional way to do a cold soak (less risky too), but you will see more extraction.

 

[AZMDTed]

I took a long look at my set up last night and think I know why I had a blow out in this case. I'm using my wine fermentation closet with reflectix foil around it. With basement temps at 74 degrees I'm not adding any heat to the fermentation closet. But with the door closed to the closet I failed to account for the fermentation heat not being able to dissipate. The must was in the high 80s and the closet temp was 80. A high 80s fermentation for a red wine is actually a good thing, but not when you're doing it in a limited space. The fermentation is very active, and with the door open I think I'm controlling it well enough to keep it active without a blow out party taking place now.

 

[AZMDTed]

For the record, total volume of a fermonster is 7.5 gallons. The extra volume of the other fermenter would be perfect to reduce the risk of overflow. Then the question becomes does that extra volume increase oxidation risk too much over the time after active fermentation?

 

[thruhike00]

I racked mine today as I am traveling most of the week and don't think there will be time over the holidays. The mud was challenging to say the least. I used a strainer, but had to roll the mud around in the strainer to get the wine to separate. I did lose some wine and had to top off the carboy. I would estimate it took me an hour longer to rack than a normal batch. Maybe I will try your method next batch. I did a small taste test for the wife and I with this batch and one that has been few months old. The extended maceration definitely tastes better at this early age. Unfortunately it will not be able to compare in a year. I got this second kit as I purchased a new 50l Vadai barrel and need double kits to fill. So these will be blended together. Based on the early results, I am probably going to stick with the extended maceration for future kits. I have four double batches waiting to go into the new Vadai, and then its going to be converted to a grape only barrel. I would have really liked to keep these separate to do a true comparison in the future.

Please find someone else who made this kit the regular path and compare in a year. And thanks for sharing your tips as you were a week ahead of me and helped me bypass some potential problems.

Ended up filling my 50l vadia with a double batch of zin that I had that needed some more time in the barrel as it was lacking in oak. So I my extended batch spent 5mos in the 23l vadia. Tested the EM vs standard kit last night. The difference is night and day. The EM kit is much more mature than the standard; smoother, fruit is lighter tasting, more background flavors, just better. The standard kit still has a bit of alcohol and fruit forward taste that will subside with time and age, but I think the EM kit will be the better wine in the end. Keep in mind that I am not pro kit maker just a pro wine drinker. Neighbors agreed with my preference and like the EM kit better as well. Its been in a carboy to finish after the barrel and will bottle today. Going to give it a few month in the bottle and test again. Thanks for starting this thread and giving us some good advice. I am going to EM all my kits going forward.

 

[AZMDTed]

Thanks for starting this thread and giving us some good advice. I am going to EM all my kits going forward.

You're very welcome. Just my way of paying back all those who helped, and continue to help, me on this forum. Thanks for posting your results, that's terrific. Good confirmation of what I saw and what Tim V discussed.

I started a CC Showcase Old Vine Zin in my newest Fermonster last Saturday. This time I kept the door open in my fermentation chamber to keep the fermentation heat from building up in the area. It fermented just fine with no issues at all of overflow. Now both kits are under airlock and I will just slosh them around daily soaking the skin bags until the day they reach the point where they stop floating.

I'm with you on moving forward with most of my kits this way. For me, with two fermonsters, I will start two kits at the same time and just let them go. That will give me four or five cycles of two batches, perfect for my yearly usage. Not only does it seem to produce better wine, it is also easier.

Did you use a clearing agent on your wine or let it drop on its own? I'm leaving the clarifiers out of more of my kits thinking the longer the TDS stay in the wine the better.

Thanks again for sharing your results.

 

[lilvixen]

I started a CC Showcase OVZ in a Fermonster on Saturday with BM4x4. The house temp is 73-77*, so I was concerned about how hot fermentation would get and if I'd have any volcanoes when stirring. The must got up to 83*, but I didn't have any overflows. Last night, the SG was down to 1.020, so I threw on the airlock, and I'll slosh until the skins sink.

I would like to follow the SG down until it at least drops below 1.000, but I'd lose the CO2 blanket. It sounds like a few of you have checked the SG when fermentation is complete and sometimes spritzed some kmeta solution in the headspace. Do you feel confident that this was ok?

 

[AZMDTed]

I started a CC Showcase OVZ in a Fermonster on Saturday with BM4x4. The house temp is 73-77*, so I was concerned about how hot fermentation would get and if I'd have any volcanoes when stirring. The must got up to 83*, but I didn't have any overflows. Last night, the SG was down to 1.020, so I threw on the airlock, and I'll slosh until the skins sink.

I would like to follow the SG down until it at least drops below 1.000, but I'd lose the CO2 blanket. It sounds like a few of you have checked the SG when fermentation is complete and sometimes spritzed some kmeta solution in the headspace. Do you feel confident that this was ok?

I think you would probably be okay as long as there was still active outgassing. Once you've hit the mark you want I would lock down the fermenter with an airlock and then slosh it around to release CO2. But then leave it under airlock till you rack. My thinking is that the outgassing will release CO2 which should displace the oxygen and restore the CO2 cap. But if you open it after you no longer have actively releasing gas then you will have a gallon and a half of air in the headspace exposed to your wine. That can't be good over the long run.

Keep us posted how it's going.

 

[sipnsavour]

Just joined Wine Making Talk and was looking around and found this forum on extended maceration.

I have also been following Tim Vandergrift's articles on his extended Amarone.

Started a WE Stags Leap Merlot July 22 in a 7.9 gallon fermonster using the supplied yeast (EC1118). Grape skins were put in the supplied bag, but added oak powder separately. Had no issues with foaming over.

Day 10, added oak cubes as SG was .998 and was getting worried about not having enough of a CO2 cap if I opened the fermonster after this.

Have noticed a dense layer of lees followed by a very fluffy layer approximately 2 1/2 inches thick in total. Fluffy layer moves very easily when disturbed.

That is all I have at this time will update as time go on.

 

[Hordak]

I do it exactly as AZMDTed described in his last post and leave all my reds to primary in the Fermonster for 30-45 days and I think it's taken my wines to the next level along with tannin and finishing tannin additions I've been doing.

 

[cderickson]

Hello All,
I’ve just bottled my first batch WE Lodi11 last Sunday and its pretty good already. My wife (and partner in this new hobby) really liked the taste as well and gave the go ahead to order another. Followed the instructions nearly to the letter with the exception of adding 2 g of tannin riche during the final racking.
Our Stag’s Leap Merlot just arrived today from LabelPeelers (40% off this week!) and we will be doing the extended maceration as described in this thread. We will also use BM4x4 and not add the sorbate. May add tannin riche again if we think it is needed. I’m not sure how long we will let it sit before bottling. We don’t have a lot of space for carboys so our wine making is limited to single thread for now.
What a great forum and thank you for all the help!

Craig

 

[jgmann67]

I’m not sure how long we will let it sit before bottling. We don’t have a lot of space for carboys so our wine making is limited to single thread for now.
What a great forum and thank you for all the help!

Craig

One carboy will become 2, 2 become 4, then the next thing you know, you have 10 six gallon glass carboys and are wondering if you might be better off with maybe one or two more....

 

[Boatboy24]

One carboy will become 2, 2 become 4, then the next thing you know, you have 10 six gallon glass carboys and are wondering if you might be better off with maybe one or two more....

I resemble that remark!

 

[lilvixen]

I started a CC Showcase CabMerlot with BM4x4 in EM 12 days ago, and I'm amazed at how much it's degassing. In the dozen kits I've done, this one wins, hands down, for most consistent airlock blooping around the 1.000 mark. (I last checked it over the weekend at 1.002 and won't open it again until it's time to rack and stabilize.) It's still slowly blooping now, which I'm ridiculously giddy about.

I'm testing out a theory on the phenomenon: The house temperature is 65-68*, and I've been using a Brew Belt to keep the must temp in the 70-74* range, and I wonder if having the must temp higher than the ambient temperature is affecting the degassing. I've gotten wine up to 75* in the summer to degas it, when the ambient temperatures are 76*, and it's still a pain and I never seem to get it all. I currently have three other carboys in various stages of progress that I'm going to further test the theory on by adding a Brew Belt to get them up to 75*, while the house is cooler, and see if I can actually completely degas them. If I can, I'll have to rethink summer fermentations.

 

[AZMDTed]

Cat, good job. Maybe Sour_Grapes or Ibglowin will chime in on the science of your theory, but here's my layman's thought on it. Lower temps can be associated with lower atmospheric pressure. If you increase the temperature of the must I think you might also increase it's local pressure. Logic then says that nature loves to move from high pressure to low pressure and you may be right that it aids in gas release from the higher pressure must to lower pressure atmosphere.

I look forward to someone who actually knows something about this to offer their opinion. In the meantime, it's fun to watch the bubbles run up the side of the Fermonster

 

[lilvixen]

In the meantime, it's fun to watch the bubbles run up the side of the Fermonster

And to hear the airlock bloop!

 

[sour_grapes]

Okay, Ted, I will do as you suggest. You are close!

Cat, absolutely, you will degas faster at higher temperature. (Try leaving an open can of soda on the counter vs. in the fridge!)

The reason gas dissolves into water at all is because there is an attractive interaction between it and the water molecules -- the gas wants to stay in the gas vs. leave. When you heat up the water, you give more energy to the molecules, which allows them to overcome this attractive interaction. Some of them can overcome the attraction and leave the surface. Then, they go away (on average), because there are a lot more ways NOT to be in the liquid then there are ways to be in the liquid. (It is a big world out there!)

In sum, we would say "The solubility of gases in water is lower at higher temperatures than at lower temperatures."

 

[lilvixen]

Cat, absolutely, you will degas faster at higher temperature. (Try leaving an open can of soda on the counter vs. in the fridge!

I promise I'm not trying to turn this into a degassing thread, but I wanted to reply that I use the Brew Belt to ensure my wines are 74-75* before degassing because I need all the degassing help I can get. The difference with this kit vs the three sitting in carboys right now is that the ambient room temperature is 8-10* cooler, and I wondered if that had an effect in natural degassing vs the ambient room temperature being the same as the wine.

 

[jgmann67]

It's been three months since the last post here. How is everyone doing with their EM efforts?

I haven't done a kit for about 6 months and am in the middle of my fall wine from Cali grapes. Hope to get a BMB or fermonster and give this a try in the spring.

I sense the 7.5 gal is the way to go.

 

[AZMDTed]

Hi Jim,

EM is about all I do now, though to be honest that has as much to do with firing and forgetting as it does with any potential wine improvement. Aside from punchdowns and stirring for a week there's no further effort and no stressing about when to move from primary to secondary or extra clean ups. Plus, if it stays reasonably warm during the process there is often very little CO2 remaining after 8 weeks. Though I do still worry about maintaining a CO2 cap during all that time. That's why I usually put it under airlock about a week into it.

Two weeks ago I took my first EM kit (Lodi Cab Nov 2016) out of a barrel that it had been in for 4 months. The taste test was inconclusive as to whether it was substantially better than my other kits. I think in part it might be barrel/bottle shock as well as I had a lot of wine work that day and did the tasting while rushing to get everything done. EM certainly doesn't seem to hurt the, and logically it should improve it.

I recently read that Tim Vandergrift has an update to his EM work in editing and should be coming out with it soon. I'm anxious to hear his thoughts as he's almost a year and a half into his experiment. Of course he can taste things at a level far more sensitive that I ever will be able to. For me, I have two fermonsters (7.5 gallons) and do two kits at a time, it just makes things easier. The only gotcha is to watch out for the 36 hour mark when if that batch wants to overflow that's when it will happen. Just be extra gentle with the stirring on days 2 and 3.

As an added bonus the fermonster plastic is so clear that you get a wonderful view of the fermentation process. That's worth the price of admission all by itself.

 

[tjgaul]

I bottled up a CC Showcase Amarone and a CC Sterling Pinot Noir last week. They were started around 1-20-17 and left on the skins 8 weeks and 6 weeks, respectively. I decided to add more oak at the penultimate racking so the oak was fairly assertive at the time of bottling. I ended up with about 500 ml of each batch extra and left the half full bottles sit for a couple days under vacu-vin caps. I thought the flavor was rich and expressive and that the oak was already tamed down a bit after having a little oxygen on it. The Amarone is good, but has harsh edges which need time to soften out. The Pinot Noir is delicious, quite bold with much deeper color than expected from this varietal. I am impressed with the attributes the skin pac gave to the PN in the smaller Sterling level kit. I'm not sure how much of the quality of these wines came from the time on the skins, but I plan to continue this method in the future. I have two more batches sitting on the skins right now (at about the 5 week mark now) . I'm with AZMDTed . . . it doesn't take that much more effort and it seems like you get more body and complexity out of the kit. Also agree on the gentle stirring around day 2-3 . . . I caused a volcano on the Amarone twice. I cringe when I think how much more robust that wine would be if I didn't lose 2 overflows to the cellar floor. Dang!