Fermenting with Stems...

[Jbu60]

I wasn't able to find much discussion about crushing and fermenting with stems so I'm posting this thread. Back in the day everybody just had a crusher in the garage and a plastic barrel. You brought home the grapes in the wooden boxes and ran them through the crusher, dropping the entire crush with stems into the barrel and walked away. I remember punching down my Dad's must and seeing all those stems tangled up in there... When I started making my own wine I always got the distributor to run my grapes through their big de-stemmer machine and brought home the must in pails, leaving the stems and boxes behind. But now I want to crush myself and ferment with the stems like we did when I was a kid. I recall the strong bitterness and tannin...and want to recreate that again. So, my question is this: I'm just buying Central Valley California grapes that are shipped up here to the Toronto area, not the premium AVA grapes, and wondering if I'm getting myself into trouble. Smiling Baby from Lodi is what they mostly carry. I'm thinking Merlot. You guys think the stems from this type of grape will be too green for this experiment? Or, is it worth trying?

 

[Johnd]

The Lodi Merlot I’ve done in the past has been well ripened and the stems ready for your non-removal. Since it seems that you know what you’re getting into, I’ll not waste my time trying to dissuade you.

 

[Rice_Guy]

the flavor of stems is usually called astringent, dehydrating the mouth

 

[Jbu60]

The Lodi Merlot I’ve done in the past has been well ripened and the stems ready for your non-removal. Since it seems that you know what you’re getting into, I’ll not waste my time trying to dissuade you.

Thanks for your reply. Can you tell me what in your opinion the downside would be? You think I should just destem half the batch?

 

[stickman]

We also have an old crusher that doesn't have a destemmer stage, so in the past we made wine including the stems. Several years in a row we noticed a "wild" flavor, that's the only way we could describe it, we thought it was interesting, but didn't know what it was caused from at the time. When we started destemming during later batches, we noticed "that" flavor did not appear in the finished wine. Depending on the wine style, some like the flavor, some don't, some winemakers will ferment a small portion with stems and use as a blending component for the finished wine.

I've heard a winemaker say that the results of stem inclusion can be unpredictable, so you have to try to determine if you like the results, and much depends on other factors like growing region, harvest conditions, and wine production techniques.

Pax’s 2016 Sonoma-Hillsides Syrah was awarded a perfect 100-point score from Antonio Galloni of Vinous, other critics gave a score in the middle 90's; this is a 12.8% ABV wine, with all of the stems included in the fermentation, 100% whole cluster, and made without sulfite and no fining or filtration. I'm not suggesting that this is what everyone should do, just pointing out how different the wine process can be, and in some cases the results are positive.

 

[Ajmassa]

@Jbu50 I’m pretty sure I know exactly what your talking about. my family’s homemade wine also had that “homemade kick”. And 2 years ago I actually attempted to recreate our old family blend. Tried to keep it as authentic as possible. Natural ferment, no nutrients etc etc.
Detailed the whole thing here: “Family” Red

however it wasn’t until your post that I realized I missed one major part of the process : the stems. I’m sure a part of that bite to the wine was due to stems. Wasn’t merlot though. They always made a white& red blend Muscat, Zinfandel, & Alicante.
I’m actually making it again this year. Picking up grapes Saturday. Tweaking the varietals a little. And now thanks to your timely post I’ll include a portion of the stems. I guess I’ll decide on how much when I get the grapes and see condition of the stems. But I think half sounds like a reasonable amount.

 

[Jbu60]

"Kick" and "bite" are good descriptors to what I was trying to say, thanks! (I've read through your "Family Red" documentation a couple of times over the last couple years and really enjoyed it.)

 

[Johnd]

Thanks for your reply. Can you tell me what in your opinion the downside would be? You think I should just destem half the batch?

Generally, the amount of stems that a winemaker leaves behind, is based upon the tannin levels in the grapes that he is fermenting. If the tannin content is low, the increase in stems will help fill the void, as the tannin is not only present for taste, but also plays a key role in color retention and the ability to age. That said, summarily including all of the stems for nostalgic purposes, I suppose that I can understand, but just know that it's at the risk of creating a wine with less than desirable tannic properties that could take many years to age and mellow into a smooth, drinkable wine. You also need to be able to evaluate the stems to know if they are going to increase your tannins, or just make the wine taste vegetal. I claim zero talent in being able to taste grapes and discern anything about the tannin content, or much else, they either taste good or not, seeds are brown and crunchy indicate if the grapes were picked ripe, or green and chewy if harvested too early. That's my limit..................

You'll get a pretty fair amount of stem pieces in your must anyway, just using a C/D machine to do that work for you. If it were me, I'd be pretty careful about how much stem material were allowed to remain with the must

 

[Ajmassa]

that bite is definitely an acquired taste. I had to retrain my taste buds from actually preferring junk wine. Agree about the risk of being careless and potentially ruining the wine tho. I read an in depth article about this a few years back. So many methods and was overwhelming to me at the time. My biggest takeaways were:
-including some stems usually done via whole clusters
-And green=no. Brown=yes.

gonna look for that article

 

[Ajmassa]

https://wineanorak.com/wholebunch.htm

 

[Jbu60]

https://wineanorak.com/wholebunch.htm

Nice article. Have you decided on what you're going to do?

I'm definitely going to try using stems but haven't decided on whether to use them all, or just half the amount.

I don't think i'm gonna try whole bunch fermentation because I don't want the potential sweetness... My goal is to get bone dry and increase mouthfeel... But, the option of including 25% whole bunches into the must is very tempting, depending of course on the, as they say "greenness" of the stems, etc.

 

[Ajmassa]

Yeah I put some thought into it. Not too concerned with residual sugar, but also I’m not pushing the % either. Confident it’ll eventually go fully dry. (Using a strong yeast this time. Not natural). Doing a field blend of 4 varietals.
8 lugs:
zin 4. Syrah 2. Muscat 1 Petite Verdot 1

If stem conditions are ok then maybe I’ll toss in 2 lugs of whole cluster. Maybe 3. I don’t know man. Shootin form the hip here. Will be a game time decision. (Just about 24hours).

(**Probably would be much less adventurous if this was the only wine I’m making and didn’t already have a others aging for blending options if needed.)

Actually heading over now to get my dads juice that will ferment at my house. 2 pails. He doesn’t know it yet- but we’re buying some grapes and a couple 10gal fermenters today too

 

[4score]

Thanks for your reply. Can you tell me what in your opinion the downside would be? You think I should just destem half the batch?

Interesting. I guess if it were me, I would do two separate batches - with and without stems. Or, maybe three (with all stems, half stems, none) and compare the results.

 

[Ajmassa]

Interesting. I guess if it were me, I would do two separate batches - with and without stems. Or, maybe three (with all stems, half stems, none) and compare the results.

Well judging based off this pre-game lug of petite sirah I just picked up- it’s a big nay-No on the stems.

a gorgeous shade of green in its own right, especially in contrast to the dark berries. Unfortunately my vast stem research showed consensus at green = no. (Seeds however are brown & crunchy)

I’ll add stems. Maybe even separate for an all-stems half like u said. But not if they’re greener than the jolly green giant.

 

[Steve Wargo]

I guess it depends on the drinker of the wine. I personally like a more tannic, stringent wine stems and grapes crush and ferment. Most women that drink my wine ( family and friends) prefer a wine less dry and very little tannin.

 

[Jbu60]

Green stems here too... Thanks to all the advice from everybody I decided not to use the stems... And, its true, there's enough stems in the must that make it through the destemmer anyway...

But the seeds were definitely crunchy. Grapes seem very ripe. Took it home and the hydrometer says it has a 15% potential. Hopefully that isn't too high.

 

[Steve Wargo]

Green stems here too... Thanks to all the advice from everybody I decided not to use the stems... And, its true, there's enough stems in the must that make it through the destemmer anyway...

But the seeds were definitely crunchy. Grapes seem very ripe. Took it home and the hydrometer says it has a 15% potential. Hopefully that isn't too high.


View attachment 66121

Nice looking grapes. Good luck with your plans.

 

[pete1325]

As I alway thought; wine making is not all science, it's a little science and a lot of personal preference. Back when I started making wine, almost 20 years ago now, the stems were a no no. Supposedly adding bitterness to the finished wine, now it seems to becoming a popular/alternate to adding a certain taste to the finished product. we still crush/destem. At the end of the day, it is what it is....wine.

 

[BernardSmith]

I wonder though, if how woody or green the stems might be to determine whether you allow some or none or many into the must. And then, if you allow them, how long the maceration + fermentation is permitted to continue before you press. So, yes, wine making is both science and art and personal "preference" might play some role but unless you yourself drink every drop of the wine you make the preferences of those you make the wine for are at least as important, so if by personal preference you mean idiosyncratic preferences that are not shared by others , then I guess I disagree. But if you mean using the science to create a delicious wine that delights and pleases others then I agree. And that said, tastes change. What was considered the height of haute cuisine forty years ago might today be thought of as disagreeable.

 

[pete1325]

Yep, My taste buds have changed. For instance: I oak more these days then aI have in the past.