Other Finer Wine Kits new process white wines

[joeswine]

Yes, Joe, as noted above it is a remedy to the dark color seen in the original Tavola series whites. I made an SB which I am going to dump. It is so dark, but that is not the worst part. I probably could live with the darkness, but the taste is off also. The new white kits contain a pouch of very fine charcoal (about the consistency of copier toner, if you have ever seen that, and just as insidious) which is mixed with water in the first step before adding the concentrated juice. The starter pouch, among other things, contains bentonite which is to combine with the charcoal and clear the wine of the dark color, it says here.

Remember in the beginning I stated I thought they had a problem with there white my chardenay had absolutely no taste , it’s like anything else n the beginning there a learning curve. I just don’t need to go down that trail.

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

Remember in the beginning I stated I thought they had a problem with there white my chardenay had absolutely no taste , it’s like anything else n the beginning there a learning curve. I just don’t need to go down that trail.

I’ve had many casualties in my journey. You love it so you will inevitably get better and better at it. Every Winemaker I’ve ever met who has become exceptional has a romantic relationship with winemaking. Matt from Label Peelers and I when we first met would sit on the phone for hours having marathon conversations about winemaking techniques. It’s something that just gets in your blood and stays there.

 

[Rocky]

Got it. You moved it early. Give it a few days. It should drop out but if it doesn’t, the clearing agents should take it out. Private message me Monday and let’s see where things stand.
Matteo

Yes, I moved it from one fermenter to another, still under airlock. I don't see how that would change the process. I did not degas or add clarifiers. I just changed the wine's location for the balance of the 14 days.

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

Yes, I moved it from one fermenter to another, still under airlock. I don't see how that would change the process. I did not degas or add clarifiers. I just changed the wine's location for the balance of the 14 days.

It’s the Bentonite. It traps particles and when you transferred it, it was left behind in the other container. But like I said, the clarifying agents should pull all of it out but if it doesn’t clear, we will send you another kit.

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

I think I understand what happened

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

Yes, I moved it from one fermenter to another, still under airlock. I don't see how that would change the process. I did not degas or add clarifiers. I just changed the wine's location for the balance of the 14 days.

I was just examining your photograph more closely. The carbon looks like it’s all stuck to the sides of your fermenter. The wine is not dark. I think it didn’t settle to the bottom because you transferred it off the bentonite too soon and it didn’t have the time to pull it out. I would transfer it to a standard carboy and proceed to the degassing and clarifying stage now. Post a photo when you’re done. Thanks!
Matteo

 

[Rocky]

I was just examining your photograph more closely. The carbon looks like it’s all stuck to the sides of your fermenter. The wine is not dark. I think it didn’t settle to the bottom because you transferred it off the bentonite too soon and it didn’t have the time to pull it out. I would transfer it to a standard carboy and proceed to the degassing and clarifying stage now. Post a photo when you’re done. Thanks!
Matteo

What photograph are you referencing? I don't recall taking a photograph of the fermenter.

However, when I did make the transfer, every drop of the liquid in the primary fermenter was saved and moved to the secondary fermenter. The only thing that went down the drain was a black mass at the bottom of the primary fermenter, which was about 1/8" thick and tar-like. If I understand correctly what you are saying, the bentonite was in this mass, and the bentonite lying on the bottom of the fermenter is supposed to pull the charcoal out of the liquid above it. Is this what you mean? I am not being intentionally obtuse, but I am not understanding how this would work given how I have used bentonite in the past.

Lastly, and this may be material, Packet A did not appear to have bentonite in it as everything in that packet dissolved immediately upon addition to the wine in the primary. That has not been my experience with bentonite, particularly in a cold liquid. Also, it did not have the characteristic consistency or color of bentonite, which I have always seen as a light gray color and granular.

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

What photograph are you referencing? I don't recall taking a photograph of the fermenter.

However, when I did make the transfer, every drop of the liquid in the primary fermenter was saved and moved to the secondary fermenter. The only thing that went down the drain was a black mass at the bottom of the primary fermenter, which was about 1/8" thick and tar-like. If I understand correctly what you are saying, the bentonite was in this mass, and the bentonite lying on the bottom of the fermenter is supposed to pull the charcoal out of the liquid above it. Is this what you mean? I am not being intentionally obtuse, but I am not understanding how this would work given how I have used bentonite in the past.

Lastly, and this may be material, Packet A did not appear to have bentonite in it as everything in that packet dissolved immediately upon addition to the wine in the primary. That has not been my experience with bentonite, particularly in a cold liquid. Also, it did not have the characteristic consistency or color of bentonite, which I have always seen as a light gray color and granular.

My bad, maybe it wasn’t your picture. Somebody else posted the photograph on page 1. I’ll find out about the bentonite. The black mass on the bottom is what’s supposed to happen. Thanks for letting me know about packet A.

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

What photograph are you referencing? I don't recall taking a photograph of the fermenter.

However, when I did make the transfer, every drop of the liquid in the primary fermenter was saved and moved to the secondary fermenter. The only thing that went down the drain was a black mass at the bottom of the primary fermenter, which was about 1/8" thick and tar-like. If I understand correctly what you are saying, the bentonite was in this mass, and the bentonite lying on the bottom of the fermenter is supposed to pull the charcoal out of the liquid above it. Is this what you mean? I am not being intentionally obtuse, but I am not understanding how this would work given how I have used bentonite in the past.

Lastly, and this may be material, Packet A did not appear to have bentonite in it as everything in that packet dissolved immediately upon addition to the wine in the primary. That has not been my experience with bentonite, particularly in a cold liquid. Also, it did not have the characteristic consistency or color of bentonite, which I have always seen as a light gray color and granular.

How was the color when you transferred it?

 

[Rocky]

How was the color when you transferred it?

Matteo, all I can say is it was black. Now on a grey scale, I cannot give a number. I just went down to the wine area and took some shots of the carboy, and I drew out a glass of the wine for pictures. See below.

On the bright side, it seems to me without any data that it is slightly lighter than when I transferred it. Not sure of that, just a general feeling.

 

[winemaker81]

Matteo, all I can say is it was black.

You could market this as "Goth Wine".

 

[wineview]

Yes, it is. I was in the 3ID from Feb '65 through Jan '67 stationed in Aschaffenburg, Germany. My unit was Bravo Battery, 2nd Battalion, 41st Artillery (M109, 155mm SP). I had many assignments over that period and ended running the FO section. It was one of the finest experiences of my life.

My dad was in the Third Division in WWII and still wears a cap with the insignia on it. He will be 98 in June.

 

[Rocky]

My dad was in the Third Division in WWII and still wears a cap with the insignia on it. He will be 98 in June.

Great to hear and all the best to him. The 3ID was in a lot of action in WWII from North Africa, to Sicily, to Italy, Southern France and into Germany through the Hurtgen Forest. I imagine he saw a lot. Do you know what Regiment he was assigned to during that period? I was in 3d Brigade, and we had the either 7th or the 15th Infantry (can't remember which) also in Aschaffenburg. We were part of Division Artillery. The structure of the division changed from WWII, so he may not have been part of a brigade. I would be very interested to hear what he did.

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

Matteo, all I can say is it was black. Now on a grey scale, I cannot give a number. I just went down to the wine area and took some shots of the carboy, and I drew out a glass of the wine for pictures. See below.

On the bright side, it seems to me without any data that it is slightly lighter than when I transferred it. Not sure of that, just a general feeling.

View attachment 86458View attachment 86459View attachment 86460View attachment 86461

Yeah that’s definitely black and I sure as hell wouldn’t drink that either.. Proceed to degassing and clarifying. The clearing agents should pull all of that out. If it doesn’t work, we will replace the kits. I’m also going to update the instructions to clearly state that all the steps in preparing the juice and primary fermentation must be followed exactly.

 

[Rocky]

Yeah that’s definitely black and I sure as hell wouldn’t drink that either.. Proceed to degassing and clarifying. The clearing agents should pull all of that out. If it doesn’t work, we will replace the kits. I’m also going to update the instructions to clearly state that all the steps in preparing the juice and primary fermentation must be followed exactly.

You could have some issues there. It would seem that everyone would have to have a 7.9-gallon fermenter with a lid and airlock or a Big Mouth Bubbler, I guess. Batches could only be made one kit at a time instead of multiples. I routinely make multiple batches so I would be out.

That aside, I still do not understand how what I did had any deleterious effect unless you are saying that the tarlike substance at the bottom of the fermenter, which was removed, would somehow clear the wine simply by lying there on the bottom. Everything, that is all liquid, on top of that was moved to the secondary fermenter and an airlock was put in place. Nothing was added to or subtracted from what came from the primary other than the black substance on the bottom. To me, you are implying that the black substance was going to clarify the wine. Please tell me how that would work.

As far as proceeding with degassing and clarifying, I want to wait until I get a stable SG and then I will degas and stabilize. As you can see by the second picture, it is still fermenting, although very slowly. I intended to blend this with Zinfandel, and I want both of their SGs in the 0.992-0.995 range.

 

[She’sgonnakillme]

maybe I am misunderstanding, but I really doubt you will get it to clear while still undergoing an active fermentation. I think you may want to hold tight and see how it works out after the recommended 14 days and add the clarifying agents. I guess there is a chance too that the LP team forgot to include the Bentonite in your packet A?

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

You could have some issues there. It would seem that everyone would have to have a 7.9-gallon fermenter with a lid and airlock or a Big Mouth Bubbler, I guess. Batches could only be made one kit at a time instead of multiples. I routinely make multiple batches so I would be out.

That aside, I still do not understand how what I did had any deleterious effect unless you are saying that the tarlike substance at the bottom of the fermenter, which was removed, would somehow clear the wine simply by lying there on the bottom. Everything, that is all liquid, on top of that was moved to the secondary fermenter and an airlock was put in place. Nothing was added to or subtracted from what came from the primary other than the black substance on the bottom. To me, you are implying that the black substance was going to clarify the wine. Please tell me how that would work.

As far as proceeding with degassing and clarifying, I want to wait until I get a stable SG and then I will degas and stabilize. As you can see by the second picture, it is still fermenting, although very slowly. I intended to blend this with Zinfandel, and I want both of their SGs in the 0.992-0.995 range.

Correct that it will not clear while active fermentation is going. You have to wait because the upward pressure of the gases will keep the material suspended.

 

[She’sgonnakillme]

Correct that it will not clear while active fermentation is going. You have to wait because the upward pressure of the gases will keep the material suspended.

I figured as much, I have never seen a wine start clearing while under active fermentation, thanks Matteo

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

maybe I am misunderstanding, but I really doubt you will get it to clear while still undergoing an active fermentation. I think you may want to hold tight and see how it works out after the recommended 14 days and add the clarifying agents. I guess there is a chance too that the LP team forgot to include the Bentonite in your packet A?

That’s sludge at the bottom was the bentonite. That’s what traps it. Like I said, when fermentation is totally done, hit it with the clarifying agents.

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

You could have some issues there. It would seem that everyone would have to have a 7.9-gallon fermenter with a lid and airlock or a Big Mouth Bubbler, I guess. Batches could only be made one kit at a time instead of multiples. I routinely make multiple batches so I would be out.

That aside, I still do not understand how what I did had any deleterious effect unless you are saying that the tarlike substance at the bottom of the fermenter, which was removed, would somehow clear the wine simply by lying there on the bottom. Everything, that is all liquid, on top of that was moved to the secondary fermenter and an airlock was put in place. Nothing was added to or subtracted from what came from the primary other than the black substance on the bottom. To me, you are implying that the black substance was going to clarify the wine. Please tell me how that would work.

As far as proceeding with degassing and clarifying, I want to wait until I get a stable SG and then I will degas and stabilize. As you can see by the second picture, it is still fermenting, although very slowly. I intended to blend this with Zinfandel, and I want both of their SGs in the 0.992-0.995 range.
[/QUOTE

You bring up a very very very valid point. We are going to have to start packaging the bentonite by itself for people who don’t work with 7.9 gallon fermentation pales with snap tops and bubblers. What will have to happen is that the wine will have to be racked When fermentation is complete and then add the Bentonite to clear it for those who want to do multiple batches in larger for mentors that don’t close. That should solve the problem.