Finer Wine Kit Finer Wine Kits

[She’sgonnakillme]

Thank you!

Btw, on the Tavola Riesling that got Silver, I used the Carbon and it only had 4-5 months in bottle!!!

Trust Matteo and their process is what I take away from that.

 

[jgmann67]

Bottled the Pinot Noir on Sunday and sampled the Meritage and Zin over the weekend. While still young, they were both delicious. I'm not going to plow through either of them - planning to let them age another year before digging in. But, they were better than my efforts with fresh grapes on both counts.

Has anyone tried Matteo's Rhone blends?

 

[Xlev]

Do you guys know if the current concentrates are from 2021 or 2022? If the 2022 grapes are not out yet,does anyone know when will they be available?Also does anyone know if they are coming with any new varieties which are not available at the moment?

 

[winemaker81]

Do you guys know if the current concentrates are from 2021 or 2022? If the 2022 grapes are not out yet,does anyone know when will they be available?Also does anyone know if they are coming with any new varieties which are not available at the moment?

We don't know for sure what vintage any of the concentrates are from. Frozen and properly stored, grape concentrates are good for years. This is not just FWK -- it's all concentrate vendors, including ones that sell on large scale to commercial wineries.

Matteo moved to Italy this year, and is looking at sourcing Italian grapes. I assume he'll have to find a vendor that uses the same (or similar) concentration process that his current American vendor uses, or ship grapes to the USA to be processed. There is no published time table for this, and I suspect that unless the research is far along, FWK can't make a reasonable prediction.

I gather from comments Matt P (LP) made that R&D is a constant thing. I like the fact that FWK/LP is not teasing their customers with vaporware, e.g., there may be an announcement of new product a month or 2 ahead of time, but they're far enough along in production that the new products hit the market about the time they say.

 

[Bmd2k1]

Bottled the Pinot Noir on Sunday and sampled the Meritage and Zin over the weekend. While still young, they were both delicious. I'm not going to plow through either of them - planning to let them age another year before digging in. But, they were better than my efforts with fresh grapes on both counts.

Has anyone tried Matteo's Rhone blends?

just ordered the Southern Rhone Hoping for Greatness!


Cheers!

 

[Xlev]

How does the quality of the kits compare to commercial wines?How much would you pay for a sinilar quality wine in the store?

 

[winemaker81]

How does the quality of the kits compare to commercial wines?How much would you pay for a sinilar quality wine in the store?

Price is not the best indicator, as it varies so much and doesn't necessarily indicate quality. I'm a bargain hunter and find wines for < $12 USD that are better than those > $20 USD.

I prefer to use a scale such as the Wine Spectator scale:

95-100	Classic: a great wine
90-94	Outstanding: a wine of superior character and style
85-89	Very good: a wine with special qualities
80-84	Good: a solid, well-made wine
75-79	Mediocre: a drinkable wine that may have minor flaws
50-74	Not recommended

In recent years, every kit I've made has been at least an 80 on the above scale. My goal when making a wine is 85-89 -- anything beyond that is a major success. My rating of the FWK I've made:

Barbara (pre-Tavola) -- 84 -- it's a good wine, but it's a bit lackluster.

Chardonnay (Tavola)-- 85 -- nice Chardonnay aroma and taste.

Sauvignon Blanc (Tavola) -- 87 -- strong SB aroma and flavor, I'm happy to serve this one.

Pinot Noir (Tavola) -- 89 -- made without skin packs, it's strong on fruit and is very clean. After the Barbera, I wasn't expecting as much, but it exceeded my expectation.

Super Tuscan (Forte) -- ?? -- I just bottled this one after 8 months in barrel, so I'm not judging it yet. My guess is 87 or 88.

Rhone Blend (Forte) -- ?? -- this is a field blend of Syrah, Petite Sirah, & Merlot kits, also just bottled. This one might make an 89.

It's entirely possible I'm a bit too hash on my wines, but I have a hard time judging wines as "outstanding". In another year it's entirely possible the last two might make it over the line to 90.

I wrote a post describing my thoughts in more detail:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/wine-ratings-and-price/

 

[AR324]

How does the quality of the kits compare to commercial wines?How much would you pay for a sinilar quality wine in the store?

Using Winemaker 81’s scale, I just opened a Forte Merlot that is about a year old. Used one grape skin pack. My wife rated it as very good, an 88. and better than most of the reds we tasted on our recent wine tour in the finger lakes.

I also thought it may be my best so far. I have paid 15.99 for wines that weren’t as nice. A fair rating was at least an 85.

 

[vinny]

Price is not the best indicator, as it varies so much and doesn't necessarily indicate quality. I'm a bargain hunter and find wines for < $12 USD that are better than those > $20 USD.

I prefer to use a scale such as the Wine Spectator scale:

95-100	Classic: a great wine
90-94	Outstanding: a wine of superior character and style
85-89	Very good: a wine with special qualities
80-84	Good: a solid, well-made wine
75-79	Mediocre: a drinkable wine that may have minor flaws
50-74	Not recommended

In recent years, every kit I've made has been at least an 80 on the above scale. My goal when making a wine is 85-89 -- anything beyond that is a major success. My rating of the FWK I've made:

Barbara (pre-Tavola) -- 84 -- it's a good wine, but it's a bit lackluster.

Chardonnay (Tavola)-- 85 -- nice Chardonnay aroma and taste.

Sauvignon Blanc (Tavola) -- 87 -- strong SB aroma and flavor, I'm happy to serve this one.

Pinot Noir (Tavola) -- 89 -- made without skin packs, it's strong on fruit and is very clean. After the Barbera, I wasn't expecting as much, but it exceeded my expectation.

Super Tuscan (Forte) -- ?? -- I just bottled this one after 8 months in barrel, so I'm not judging it yet. My guess is 87 or 88.

Rhone Blend (Forte) -- ?? -- this is a field blend of Syrah, Petite Sirah, & Merlot kits, also just bottled. This one might make an 89.

It's entirely possible I'm a bit too hash on my wines, but I have a hard time judging wines as "outstanding". In another year it's entirely possible the last two might make it over the line to 90.

I wrote a post describing my thoughts in more detail:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/wine-ratings-and-price/

Would you kindly rate some of your earlier kits (pre fwk) as well as pressed wines for my entertainment?

I would put all of my kits in the 75-84 range. None have blown me away, but there is nothing discernibly wrong or off that I can identify. Just a good solid success. I have pretty big expectations for the global kit I just did with skins. It seems to be much fuller with more identifiable varietal characteristics. I have looked at buying presses, and I considered doing a juice this year. I expect moving into this realm will increase effort and age time, therefor expectations. I would just like to know your take on some of the pasturized kits vs FWK vs grapes/juice wines that you have made..

No pressure

 

[winemaker81]

Would you kindly rate some of your earlier kits (pre fwk) as well as pressed wines for my entertainment?

You're not asking much.

My first thought is you are nuts. My second thought is you are nuts, but the request isn't that hard.

I took a list of the regular kits (no fun wines, no ports) and did a quick ranking based upon my memories. Most wines turned out acceptable, but a lot of the late 90's / 2000's kids were unexceptional in all ways. I purchased a couple of the first premium kits, and both were disappointing. In recent years the kit quality, overall, got a lot better. This is not a surprise.

The WineArt and Wine-Kitz brands are long gone. I recall the WineArt kits being a tall, narrow box. There was probably only 3 or 4 liters of concentrate to reconstitute to 23 liters, which explains why they didn't make good wine.

1996 - WineArt Vieux Chateau du Roi - 82

1997 - WineArt White Bordeaux - 84

1999 - WineArt Project Wine Cellar Merlot - 80 - costly, but disappointing

2002 - Wine-Kitz Project Holiday Wine 2001 Sangiovese/Cabernet/Merlot - 80 - costly, but disappointing

2006 - Vino del Vida Wine Chenin Blanc - 83

2006 - Vino del Vida Wine Fume Blanc - 85

2006 - Winexpert Selection Speciale Series Nebbiolo D’Alba - 81

2006 - Vino del Vida Wine Pinot Noir - 83

2008 - Vino del Vida Wine Gewurztraminer - 80

2008 - Vino del Vida Red Zinfandel - 82 - not a lot of Zin character

2009 - Winexpert Selection Original Series Barolo - 78 - off taste

2011 - R J Spagnols Premier Cru Australian Chardonnay - 85 - first kit in a while that impressed

2011 - Winexpert Selection Original Series Wine Chardonnay/Semillon - 87 - A surprise

2011 - Winexpert Selection Original Series Wine South African Pinotage - 89 - A bigger surprise

2011 - R J Spagnols Heritage Estates Vieux Chateau du Roi - 88 - ditto

2014 - Winexpert Selection Original Series Wine Cabernet Sauvignon/Merlot - 85

2014 - Winexpert Selection Estate Wine Gewurztraminer - 78 - no Gewurz character

2014 - Winexpert Selection Original Luna Bianca - 87 - Serious wow

2014 - Winexpert Selection International with Grape Skin Tempranillo - 84 - hit of oxidation that never materialized

2016 - Winexpert International Australian Petit Verdot - 84 - had potential, but did not show character.

2016 - Winexpert Selection South African Pinotage - 85 - Not as good as the 2011

2018 - Winexpert Selection Original Luna Bianca - 85 - Not as good as the 2014

2018 - Winexpert Selection Chilean Sauvignon Blanc - 85

2018 - R J Spagnols Grand Cru Verdicchio - 88 - Serious wow

2018 - Winexpert Selection Vieux Chateau du Roi - 89 - another wow.

2019 - Winexpert 2018 Limited Edition Chile Corazon - 80 - bottled too early, inconsistent

2019 - R J Spagnols Grand Cru Merlot - 86 - Surprisingly good

2019 - Winexpert Selection Merlot - 87 - better than the RJ Spagnols

2019 - Winexpert 2018 Limited Edition California Symphony/Gewurztraminer - 84 - no Gewurz character

2019 - R J Spagnols Grand Cru Vieux Chateau du Roi - 82 - disappointing

2020 - Winexpert Reserve Australian Cabernet Sauvignon - 88 - very nice

2020 - Winexpert Reserve Australian Chardonnay - 87 - very nice

2020 - R J Spagnols Grand Cru Pinot Noir - 86 - pretty good

 

[vinny]

Thank you!

You can call me nuts all you want, but clearly you had fun with it. I was thinking a list like the five listed above and you give me almost 40!

It is interesting to see your ratings go up over the years with a notably higher average in the last 10 years. I am also surprised to see the bulk of these kits keeping up with FWK.

I am looking at upping my game. I was considering an oak barrel purchase earlier this evening. I have 5 liter barrels, I think there is going to be an upcoming experiment before I make a purchase. You age in bulk 2 years on average? Do you often age kits in barrels, or do you save that for your grape presses.

Lastly, would you rate your pressed wine higher than kits in general? Have you ever given a pressed wine over 90?

 

[winemaker81]

It is interesting to see your ratings go up over the years with a notably higher average in the last 10 years. I am also surprised to see the bulk of these kits keeping up with FWK.

It's actually not a surprise, not from someone who's been making kits for 25+ years. The concentrate in the early kits was lower quality, and the reconstitution ratio was higher. I'll post a picture later of the 1999 Project Wine Cellar container, which for some off reason is still in my attic. It's tiny, and the regular WineArt kits were smaller. I wish I had saved those boxes -- I had 2 that I used for storing odds-n-ends, but junked them some years ago.

Regarding FWK, IMO you have it backwards. FWK came onto the scene and quickly caught up with the established vendors. In 2 years they have produced high quality kits at a better price than WE and RJS.

I am looking at upping my game. I was considering an oak barrel purchase earlier this evening. I have 5 liter barrels, I think there is going to be an upcoming experiment before I make a purchase. You age in bulk 2 years on average?

Tiny barrels are dangerous, as you can badly over-oak a wine in a matter of weeks, as the internal surface area to volume ratio is so high. If I purchased another barrel, it would be in the 23 to 30 liter range (6 to 8 US gallons), and I'd have to cycle at least 3 batches through it in the first year. As previously mentioned, wines aged for 2 years in a new oak barrel are typically in 225+ liter (59+ gallon) barrels.

I've experimented with different bulk aging schemes, and have done 2 years. Some of that was laziness, I just didn't get around to bottling, I just checked airlocks monthly.

My barrels are cycled annually -- I rack a barrel, clean it with Barrel OxyFresh (soaks 4 hours), bottle the old wine, and fill the barrel with new wine. My son and I work together well, efficiently, and it's still an 8 to 10 hour day to do both barrels. If I get grapes in October, barrel swapping will occur in November or early December.

I tried bottling on kit schedule, and the 2018 Corazon (WE LE kit) was a dismal failure, as there was wide bottle variance. I've re-adopted my original plan, which is a minimum of 4 months (1 month for fermentation/clearing, 3 months bulk aging). Most lighter wines will age 6 months, and heavier reds up to 12 months. This is not hard-n-fast, and real life stuff will affect the timeline.

Grapes are hard, as the fruit varies SOOOOO much from year to year. Kits are consistent. The grape wines I made in the late 80's were all pretty good, 83 to 89. I made Carmine in '88 and that one might have been a 90. The 2019 Merlot and Zinfandel fail to hit that mark due to high ABV unbalances them -- it was my first time with west coast grapes, and I didn't water back. Oddly enough, the 2019 second run Squeezins' wine (hard press from the pomace) was a 90. Very pronounced fruit, strong Merlot and Malbec character with nice support from the Zin. The 2020 Meritage might hit 90 in a year -- at this time it's 88 to 89, and it will take a bit for me to push it over that dividing line.

I wrote a post last spring about making a big red -- mostly a list of techniques that can contribute to success:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/making-a-big-red/

Do you often age kits in barrels, or do you save that for your grape presses.

Although I helped others with barrels, my first barrel was in 2019. I put a 2nd run wine in it, as that was the only wine where I had 16+ gallons necessary to keep the barrel full for a year. That one was a great success, not hitting 90, but a solid 86. The Squeezins' mentioned above was the same batch, the final 8 gallons from the press -- some was used to top the barrel.

I put kits in the barrels in 2021 to keep them full, as my grape purchase was scotched -- the delivery date kept changing, and coincided with my son's wedding, and I had to make a hard choice. Ya know, I love my son, but do I love him that much?

This year we have Grenache and Tempranillo in the barrels. Next year? Dunno. We have a 5 year plan, e.g., don't make the same wine twice in 5 years. I'm leaning towards repeating this year's idea -- barrels will hold varietals, maybe Cabernet Sauvignon and Sangiovese, and we'll make a blend (Syrah, Merlot, Petit Verdot?) that will be carboy aged, and selectively blended into the 2 barrel wines the following fall. I make this stuff up as I go, and the plans may not be finalized until the moment I hit Send to email my order.

And not even then -- the 2020 Meritage and Meritage Plus blends were finalized during pressing. I had a Bordeaux Blend, Zinfandel, and 2 Merlot batches. At pressing I put the free run + light press from the Bordeaux Blend + both Merlot into one Brute, and everything remaining went into the other. Sometimes going with the gut works (and it doesn't hurt that I've done a LOT of research [which includes taste testing]) so the decision wasn't fully blind.

 

[winemaker81]

Below is a picture of the Project Wine Cellar package on top of a FWK box. As I said above, kits had a LOT less volume BITD. Project Wine Cellar was the first "premium" kit I'm aware of.




The package states the kit makes either 19 or 23 liters, and appears to indicate the contents are juice. However, the package weight 11 kg/24 US lbs is NOT 19 liters of juice, which is double that. My notes indicate I reconstituted to 5.5 US gallons (21 liters).

None of the kits of this era were impressive. Today's kits are FAR better.

I'm not sure when kits came out -- I ran a LHBS from '89 - '91 and AFAIK, there were no "kits" then. Canned concentrate was available, and we sold a few cans, but it was low end stuff.

 

[Xlev]

Below is a picture of the Project Wine Cellar package on top of a FWK box. As I said above, kits had a LOT less volume BITD. Project Wine Cellar was the first "premium" kit I'm aware of.

View attachment 96010


The package states the kit makes either 19 or 23 liters, and appears to indicate the contents are juice. However, the package weight 11 kg/24 US lbs is NOT 19 liters of juice, which is double that. My notes indicate I reconstituted to 5.5 US gallons (21 liters).

None of the kits of this era were impressive. Today's kits are FAR better.

I'm not sure when kits came out -- I ran a LHBS from '89 - '91 and AFAIK, there were no "kits" then. Canned concentrate was available, and we sold a few cans, but it was low end stuff.

View attachment 96011

Excellent information and thank you for sharing so much information!

I have ordered a pinot noir forte from FWK and I am looking forward to brewing it. My girlfriend prefers white wine wine,so I need to figure out which white I should make.

Wineker,have you ever tried the 6gal Mosti Mondiale kits?

 

[winemaker81]

Wineker,have you ever tried the 6gal Mosti Mondiale kits?

I have not -- my recent experience is with WineXpert, RJ Spagnols, and FWK.

You ordered a FWK? Your location says Norway -- I was not aware that FWK ships out of the USA, as the product is unpasteurized and ships frozen, and must be delivered in a timely manner.

Regarding which wines to make, what does your girlfriend like? Anything she likes commercially, buy similar in kits.

 

[plato25]

Price is not the best indicator, as it varies so much and doesn't necessarily indicate quality. I'm a bargain hunter and find wines for < $12 USD that are better than those > $20 USD.

I prefer to use a scale such as the Wine Spectator scale:

95-100	Classic: a great wine
90-94	Outstanding: a wine of superior character and style
85-89	Very good: a wine with special qualities
80-84	Good: a solid, well-made wine
75-79	Mediocre: a drinkable wine that may have minor flaws
50-74	Not recommended

In recent years, every kit I've made has been at least an 80 on the above scale. My goal when making a wine is 85-89 -- anything beyond that is a major success. My rating of the FWK I've made:

Barbara (pre-Tavola) -- 84 -- it's a good wine, but it's a bit lackluster.

Chardonnay (Tavola)-- 85 -- nice Chardonnay aroma and taste.

Sauvignon Blanc (Tavola) -- 87 -- strong SB aroma and flavor, I'm happy to serve this one.

Pinot Noir (Tavola) -- 89 -- made without skin packs, it's strong on fruit and is very clean. After the Barbera, I wasn't expecting as much, but it exceeded my expectation.

Super Tuscan (Forte) -- ?? -- I just bottled this one after 8 months in barrel, so I'm not judging it yet. My guess is 87 or 88.

Rhone Blend (Forte) -- ?? -- this is a field blend of Syrah, Petite Sirah, & Merlot kits, also just bottled. This one might make an 89.

It's entirely possible I'm a bit too hash on my wines, but I have a hard time judging wines as "outstanding". In another year it's entirely possible the last two might make it over the line to 90.

I wrote a post describing my thoughts in more detail:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/wine-ratings-and-price/

How is the Wine Spectator level determined/calculated?

 

[winemaker81]

How is the Wine Spectator level determined/calculated?

I don't know that they publish a method. It's an experience based thing, e.g., to judge Carmine you have to have tasted Carmine. Except you've never heard of Carmine as it's an obscure hybrid that had potential 30 years ago.

That's not all that helpful, is it? I'm not being difficult, but wine judging resembles blend men touching an elephant and each producing a completely different determination depending on what they touched.

Craig (@cmason1957) posted his local group's scoring method earlier this year (I think). That is useful, but like all scales, it requires experience.

 

[jgmann67]

I've been very pleased with the quality of my wines from FWK. Granted, I was doing two packs of grape skins from the beginning: and I like to add French Medium (Plus) oak to my wines. But, the wines have been very satisfying. We rate them better than any PA, VA and NY wines we've had so far and as good as the daily drinking wines we get from CA, OR or WA.

They do not have that same kit taste that was present for us in the WineExpert and RJS kits; and are not as quick to mature either.

I'll go one step further and say that I'm happier with the FWKs than I have been with the majority of my wines-from-grapes, too.

I tasted my most recent FWK wines - the Forte Meritage, Pinot Noir, Zin, Barbera, and Grenache Rose (and yes, I realize I may have a problem... hehe). Even the youngest of them, the Grenache Rose, is a winner at 2 months old. It's my summer wine that I got a jump on for this season. By the time summer rolls around, it should be stellar.

I ordered the Tavola Chardonnay and the Forte Northern Rhone during the cyber-Monday sales (seriously - two kits delivered for $197???). But, I'll be very surprised if they're anything less than what I've experienced so far.

 

[cmason1957]

And for those who might care to see it again, here is the sheet our club uses for scoring. We do a monthly competition and then an end of year Best of Show for all the monthly winners.

If anyone would like a word version of this, I can provide that as well. Nothing original here.
and as an example of scores that we got just yesterday from our yearly competition:

October, Chocolate Mocha (Port Wines) (wine kit)- 18.14285714
April, Frontenac Gris (Any White) (grapes)- 17.67857143
November, Chambourcin (Any Red) (grapes)- 16.69230769
May, Norton Rose’ (Rose’) (grapes)- 16.30769231
September, Super Tuscan (Kit Wines) (FWK wine kit)- 16.11538462
March, Catawba (Sweet Red) (grapes)- 16.03846154
June, Peach Chardonnay (Fruit Wine) (WE wine kit)- 15.89285714
July, Bella Bianco (Dry White) (RJSpagnals wine kit)- 15.46153846
February, Pinot Noir (Dry Red) (chilean juice bucket, I think)- 15.03571429

 

[Shurt1073]

I bought the Grenache Rose and Pinot Noir on friday while on sale $177 including shipping although I won't start on them until March. My fear was they would be out of stock or the price might raise so I pulled the trigger. Its exciting to hear what everyone is saying about the kits and how different they are compared to most. Bryan's high marks on the scale plus Jim's positive comments for the FWK gives me the confidence to try something outside my comfort zone. I will have nothing to compare them with because these will be my first kits outside of the Island Mist.