Finer Wine Kit Finer Wine Kits

[Ohio Bob]

I could never get any liquid out of skin packs, like tablespoons. Now I just let them drip liquid, give a light squeeze so I don’t drip any excess, then pitch them into the compost.

 

[winemaker81]

It does not apply anywhere near the needed pressure. I had to take them out and squeeze by hand. I guess I just learn the hard way!

Don't sell yourself short. That's call practical experimentation. It's a time honored way of figuring out what works!

 

[wineview]

I wear sanitized rubber gloves, grab one of the muslin bags over the fermentor and squeeze. A lot of juice drips out too if you are patient. Sometimes I wring the bag but not so hard that it would tear open. I think I get mostly all the juice out. No complaints about the finished product.

 

[jgmann67]

I could never get any liquid out of skin packs, like tablespoons. Now I just let them drip liquid, give a light squeeze so I don’t drip any excess, then pitch them into the compost.

just my two bits - I sanitize my hands, let the skins drip and then squeeze every last little bit I can out of them. Maybe it's a half cup or less. But, it's a half cup I wouldn't have if I chucked after draining.

 

[Deeg]

Tavola Sangiovese- made to directions but added FT Rouge, opti-red, 6 oz dried currants, 2 oz dried cherries, 2 oz dried blueberries. At 9 months this one is surprisingly good. Fruit forward and smooth.

Note that I added Color Pro during ferment to all but the PS. I also started using 1 oz glycerin/gal at bottling and it seems to help smooth edges. Additionally all kits were oaked in secondary with what came with the kits or 1.5 oz medium oak (American oak if I recall correctly).

Phew! I'm pretty new to this whole home wine-making thing and brand new to FWK. Made my first one (a Sonoma Forte) and it's in secondary now. Finally finished reading this whole thread and am interested in doing some tweaking for the next one. Couple of questions for those who've done this a whole lot more:

If you're using Color Pro, do you forgo the packet FWK gives you since that also has pectinase in it? Or can too much not hurt?

And I'm definitely thinking of Opti-Red and some added sacrificial tannin, too (like in the post above). Those would both go in before pitching, correct?

 

[winemaker81]

If you're using Color Pro, do you forgo the packet FWK gives you since that also has pectinase in it? Or can too much not hurt?

The FWK package has numerous things in it -- don't skip it. Doubling up with pectinase doesn't hurt anything.

And I'm definitely thinking of Opti-Red and some added sacrificial tannin, too (like in the post above). Those would both go in before pitching, correct?

I haven't used Opti-Red, but the sacrificial tannin goes in before pitching. I put it in the bag with the skin packs, as it eases the first racking.

 

[Gilmango]

Phew! I'm pretty new to this whole home wine-making thing and brand new to FWK. Made my first one (a Sonoma Forte) and it's in secondary now. Finally finished reading this whole thread and am interested in doing some tweaking for the next one. Couple of questions for those who've done this a whole lot more:

If you're using Color Pro, do you forgo the packet FWK gives you since that also has pectinase in it? Or can too much not hurt?

And I'm definitely thinking of Opti-Red and some added sacrificial tannin, too (like in the post above). Those would both go in before pitching, correct?

Opti-Red would go in before pitching. Here's what MoreWine says about it, however, if you use Color Pro then I would not bother with Lallzyme EX, as they are pretty redundant. I use the Lallzyme EX in part as MoreWine sells it in small quantities which can be hard to come by for some for some products (like Color Pro):

An inactive yeast product which improves body, color stability, and mouthfeel in red wines. Using Opti-Red in the must makes polysaccharides available to complex with polyphenols as soon as they are released. This early complexing results in red wines with more intense color, rounder mouthfeel and better tannin integration. Use in conjunction with Lallzyme EX for best results. We think the effect is very similar to using D254 yeast which has a high degree of polysaccharide-tannin complexing. Use at the rate of 1 gram per gallon of red wine. Dilute Opti-Red in 4 times it weight of water or must [manufacturer suggests 10x] and add at beginning of fermentation.

A rough approximate of weight is 1 tsp = 2.6 grams. We highly recommend using a scale to weigh the product for an accurate dose. We do not recommend relying on these rough conversions for accurate dosage rates.

 

[winemaker81]

I use the Lallzyme EX in part as MoreWine sells it in small quantities which can be hard to come by for some for some products (like Color Pro):

Lodi Wine Labs was selling Color Pro in 1.3 oz bottles, but stopped. Last fall @VinesnBines & I got ours from Grape & Granary.

Anyone who is not finding home winemaker-sized packages of additives should ping Grape & Granary -- last fall they indicated a willingness to stock items. However, if there's no call for enough of any item, it's unlikely they'll continue. It's in our best interest to ensure that anyone selling in package sizes that we want has a reason to continue.

https://www.grapeandgranary.com

 

[GretchenR]

This is the first time I've ever heard of Opti-Red and Lallzyme -- and Color Pro, for that matter. All new to me. You experienced winemakers, do you taste a real difference with these products? It seems like a simple addition (if you have a gram scale) and pretty cheap, so I'm thinking I'll try it when I make my next FWK Zinfandel. Has anyone done a side-by-side comparison, making half a kit with these additives and half without?

 

[winemaker81]

This is the first time I've ever heard of Opti-Red and Lallzyme -- and Color Pro, for that matter. All new to me. You experienced winemakers, do you taste a real difference with these products? It seems like a simple addition (if you have a gram scale) and pretty cheap, so I'm thinking I'll try it when I make my next FWK Zinfandel. Has anyone done a side-by-side comparison, making half a kit with these additives and half without?

I've been using Scottzyme Color Pro since 2020, and it makes a huge difference. I get a LOT of color from the skins and the tannin is smooth. It has a pectinase action, so I get more overall extraction from the grapes.

With the maceration enzymes, read the effects and make sure it's what you want. Using more than 1 enzyme can work, but look for overlap, e.g., I would not use two that improve color extraction. I used an overdose in 2020 and those wines stain the inside of the bottle with excess color that didn't settle out during a year's bulk aging. Last fall I used the minimum vendor recommended dosage of Color Pro and the wines look good.

While it's good to consider recommendations, I suggest you go to the vendor sites and read their literature. I heard about Color Pro in a video Frank Musto did (Musto Grapes, a distributor), and after reading about it, added it to my red grape plans.

 

[GretchenR]

I've been using Scottzyme Color Pro since 2020, and it makes a huge difference. I get a LOT of color from the skins and the tannin is smooth. It has a pectinase action, so I get more overall extraction from the grapes.

With the maceration enzymes, read the effects and make sure it's what you want. Using more than 1 enzyme can work, but look for overlap, e.g., I would not use two that improve color extraction. I used an overdose in 2020 and those wines stain the inside of the bottle with excess color that didn't settle out during a year's bulk aging. Last fall I used the minimum vendor recommended dosage of Color Pro and the wines look good.

While it's good to consider recommendations, I suggest you go to the vendor sites and read their literature. I heard about Color Pro in a video Frank Musto did (Musto Grapes, a distributor), and after reading about it, added it to my red grape plans.

Thank you for your very helpful response. Just so I can be sure I understand, are you using Color Pro for wine you are making from grapes, or are you using it with kits?

 

[winemaker81]

Thank you for your very helpful response. Just so I can be sure I understand, are you using Color Pro for wine you are making from grapes, or are you using it with kits?

I've done both. In 2021 my grape purchased fell through, so I purchased FWK Forte kits to fill my barrels. Since I had already purchased Color Pro, I used it on the kits as they have skin packs. The color extraction is amazing.

Color Pro is of no value (AFAIK) for kits that do not have skin packs.

EDIT:

Below is a picture of the 2020 Meritage (2/3 Merlot, 1/3 Bordeaux blend) that I overdosed on Color Pro. The wine is pure ink. I have to add a bit of Oxyclean when soaking the bottles to remove the interior staining. Too much of a good thing.

In contrast, the 2023 wines (Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Merlot) were given the minimum dosage, and the color is VERY nice, but not so inky. I don't have pictures as they will be in barrels and glass until November.

 

[ratflinger]

Lodi Wine Labs was selling Color Pro in 1.3 oz bottles, but stopped. Last fall @VinesnBines & I got ours from Grape & Granary.

Anyone who is not finding home winemaker-sized packages of additives should ping Grape & Granary -- last fall they indicated a willingness to stock items. However, if there's no call for enough of any item, it's unlikely they'll continue. It's in our best interest to ensure that anyone selling in package sizes that we want has a reason to continue.

https://www.grapeandgranary.com

Grape & Granary also sells it on Amazon

 

[Mcjeff]

Lodi Wine Labs was selling Color Pro in 1.3 oz bottles, but stopped. Last fall @VinesnBines & I got ours from Grape & Granary.

Anyone who is not finding home winemaker-sized packages of additives should ping Grape & Granary -- last fall they indicated a willingness to stock items. However, if there's no call for enough of any item, it's unlikely they'll continue. It's in our best interest to ensure that anyone selling in package sizes that we want has a reason to continue.

https://www.grapeandgranary.com

I bought some at Grape and Granary last year as well. Good people at Grape and Granary. Very friendly and helpful. One of my 2 local stops.

 

[Bmd2k1]

Just curious if the new FWKs are shipping yet & what folks are making?

Got Sangiovese on my radar

Cheers!

 

[cmason1957]

Just curious if the new FWKs are shipping yet & what folks are making?

Got Sangiovese on my radar

Cheers!

I have a Sangiovese and a Chianti sitting in carboys from about 3 weeks ago. The smell and taste when I mixed them up was very encouraging. So the answer to your question is yes.

 

[Bmd2k1]

I have a Sangiovese and a Chianti sitting in carboys from about 3 weeks ago. The smell and taste when I mixed them up was very encouraging. So the answer to your question is yes.

What ABVs ya looking at?

 

[cmason1957]

What ABVs ya looking at?

The notes aren't here in front of me, so this is from memory and sometimes that isn't worth two nickels. As I recall, the Sangiovese started at 1.096, which was on the high side of expected (it's a Novello style) and I added just a tad more water to allow some racking losses and some extra tannin. The Chianti started at 1.090 and the next morning for pitch was at 1.110 (also on the high side). It is a Forte style with 2 bags of skins and seeds and some extra tannin, it will probably also get a nice stick of Medium French Toast while it bulk ages, the Sangiovese might as well. Both of them ended up fermenting down to 0.994, which is a bit lower than most report ending up at. They may have dropped a bit more, I haven't checked for a final sg after sitting in the carboy for a bit. I don't do extended maceration, I did a few times and didn't think it brought enough extra to the final wine to bother with.

As you might guess I don't particularly follow the instructions,. After I get below about 1.020, I stop stirring and put a lid on, but the lid isn't tight, since I am fermenting in a Brute trash can (10 gallon). I rack to carboy when it is convenient for me, generally the sg has dropped below 1.000. Then into the carboy for about 2 or 3 weeks. K-Meta and a racking happen after that, then a 3-6-9 month wait, with K-Meta added about every 3 months. If I think the wine calls for it, clearing happens, then maybe filtering, and finally bottling.

 

[idahorevbob]

@cmason1957 , do you bulk age the Novello for the full 9 months? I have made one Novello PInot Noir and it was very good after only a few months (don't remember exactly how long I bulk aged, but not a full year like the Forte). I know the Novello's are sold as quicker making and for quick drinking. I wondered if that was more marketing than anything else. I wondered if they would benefit with a longer bulk aging. I'd love to experiment with the Novellos and add...stuff...to make them more tasty. I don't really know how to add tannins and oak. By that I mean, I don't understand what "more tannin" means to my tongue, if that makes sense. Lots to learn but having a blast!

 

[cmason1957]

@idahorevbob, I will probably bulk age the Novello for about 3 months, then taste it. That's a short time to me. I expect to age it for a bit longer than that.

More tannin, and by that, I mean I added about a heaping tablespoon to some water, stir it like I'm made at it to incorporate it well into that water, then add it. Sometimes I do this during primary fermentation, sometimes before, sometimes after (I am consistently inconsistent about when). To me it adds some extra mouthfeel, maybe some extra length to the finish, maybe some extra bit to the wine, and maybe I'm just kidding myself, who knows.

Oak, to me adds extra depth to a wine and some of the same things tannin does. I mostly use French Oak, medium or medium + toast and I prefer a product called WineStix (maybe sticks) over cubes or spirals. I also tend to leave them in for at least 3 months, less than that tended to leave more Oak taste and harshness. They stop giving up oak and add smoothness after about 2 months. All this is my opinion and others may and will disagree completely.

Here's words from Morewinemaking about oak types:

French Oak Flavor Summary

All toast levels have a perceived aromatic sweetness and full mouthfeel.
French oak has a fruity, cinnamon/allspice character, along with custard/ crème brûlée, milk chocolate and campfire/roasted coffee notes*. (*Especially at higher toast levels.)
As the toast levels increased the fruity descriptor for the wine changed from fresh to jammy to cooked fruit/raisin in character.

American Oak Flavor Summary

The American oak had aromatic sweetness and a campfire/roasted coffee attribute present in all three toast levels, with Medium Plus and Heavy toast having the highest intensity.
American oak had cooked fruit more than a fresh or jammy quality.
American Oak imparted mouthfeel/fullness, especially in Medium Plus.

Hungarian Oak Flavor Summary

The Hungarian oak at Medium toast displayed a high perceived-vanillin content, with roasted coffee, bittersweet chocolate and black pepper characters.
Medium Plus and Heavy toast imparted mouthfeel fullness, with only a slight amount of campfire/roasted coffee. Heavy also had pronounced vanillin. At all toast levels, there were unique attributes such as leather and black pepper, not observed in other oak origins.

Some applicable generalizations of toast levels on oak

The lower the toast, the more tannins (“structure”) and lactones (“wood-like” and “coconut”) will be present in each of the oaks.
The higher the toast, the more spice and smoke notes will be present.
The deeper the toast, the more deep the caramel tones will be (moving into butterscotch at medium plus).
Vanilla will increase up through a medium-plus toast and then decrease with a heavy toast and char.
American oak will be more aromatic, but French oak will give more structure (Hungarian will give less than the French but more than the American).
The greater the toast level, the lower the lactones (“wood” and “coconut”) for all three woods.

Medium plus is the most complex of all of the toast levels, and the most popular.