Frozen must tastes harsh

[SLM]

I got 4 buckets of red from WGD, 3 different varietals. After 10 months of bulk aging in 4 different vessels they are all tasting quite harsh. Sour and bitter. Most recent sample is a blend, pH 3.7, TA 6. I know the stock answer is "give it time", but so far time has not been kind. There's no way I would put this in bottles tasting like that. I know others have purchased from WGD with success. Has this been your experience?

 

[salcoco]

maybe high tannin try fining with unflavored gelatin maybe a bench trial. gelatin available in grocery store.

 

[CDrew]

If all 3 have the same flavor, I suspect the problem is not with the grapes. Maybe some details of your process-enzymes used, other ingredients added, Yeast variety, access to O2 etc. If it's truely sour, did you add any acid, or acid blend? Overall, though, your numbers look good. But sour can be acetic acid-is it at all vinegar like? If so, that usually means inadvertent air exposure.

But, 10 months is not very long and tannins don't really soften for me until a minimum of 2 years out, and 3 years is better.

Are the wines fully rid of their CO2? Depending on conditions, high levels of CO@ can persist a long time, and this will alter the flavor some.

I do suspect you just need to wait. So top up the SO2 levels and taste again in 6 months or so.

 

[Rice_Guy]

@CDrew sounds correct.
A test for flavor after degassing is to take an ounce > microwave a minute > stir till bubbles stop > cool to room temp > taste.
CO2 will give bitter notes like an unsweetened seltzer water

harsh? with a descriptor like that I start to wonder about nitrogen. Low nitrogen with sone yeast will produce H2S which further react into mercaptans. Sorta protein like taste overpowering all the fruity aromas.

 

[crushday]

I got 4 buckets of red from WGD, 3 different varietals. After 10 months of bulk aging in 4 different vessels they are all tasting quite harsh. Sour and bitter. Most recent sample is a blend, pH 3.7, TA 6. I know the stock answer is "give it time", but so far time has not been kind. There's no way I would put this in bottles tasting like that. I know others have purchased from WGD with success. Has this been your experience?

Since I've had many great experiences with the grapes I've ordered from WGD, none of which would be described as you've offered - tell me more about your process. What are the varieties? What yeast? Did you inoculate with MLB? How are you storing the wine now? Lot's of questions...

What is your experience with fermenting grapes? It's a slightly different animal to making wine from a kit.

Unlike kits, which are advertised to be drinkable as soon as 4 weeks (depending on the kit), real grapes do not adhere to that timeline.

In the end, more information is necessary if you want a substantive answer.

 

[SLM]

If all 3 have the same flavor, I suspect the problem is not with the grapes. Maybe some details of your process-enzymes used, other ingredients added, Yeast variety, access to O2 etc. If it's truely sour, did you add any acid, or acid blend? Overall, though, your numbers look good. But sour can be acetic acid-is it at all vinegar like? If so, that usually means inadvertent air exposure.

But, 10 months is not very long and tannins don't really soften for me until a minimum of 2 years out, and 3 years is better.

Are the wines fully rid of their CO2? Depending on conditions, high levels of CO@ can persist a long time, and this will alter the flavor some.

I do suspect you just need to wait. So top up the SO2 levels and taste again in 6 months or so.

I added the pre-measured packs that WGD provides, tartaric acid, FT Rouge, optired, BDX yeast. No vinegar taste. I think I'm careful with O2 exposure. It only sees air during racking, carboys are topped up.

I don't think CO2 is present, but can test as Rice Guy suggests.

WGD actually responded today as well, suggested it may be tannin. If so, when do you decide to bottle? Do you wait until you're satisfied with the taste or do you predict a softening of tannins and get it bottled? How long is it safe to age in carboys? If long term, would you continue racking regularly or just add SO2 every 3 months and seal it up?

 

[SLM]

Since I've had many great experiences with the grapes I've ordered from WGD, none of which would be described as you've offered - tell me more about your process. What are the varieties? What yeast? Did you inoculate with MLB? How are you storing the wine now? Lot's of questions...

What is your experience with fermenting grapes? It's a slightly different animal to making wine from a kit.

Unlike kits, which are advertised to be drinkable as soon as 4 weeks (depending on the kit), real grapes do not adhere to that timeline.

In the end, more information is necessary if you want a substantive answer.

Yeah I read one of your WGD adventures. It was my first time using grapes. And I'm not faulting the grapes at all, just a little surprised by what I'm tasting, hoping I'm not getting off track.

One bucket CS, one CF, two Merlot. Each fermented separately. Used the supplied BDX yeast, along with other ingredients listed above. MLB was CH16, inoculated after AF. MLF took 3 months. Then blended the CS & CF, currently in a small oak barrel and a carboy. Merlot is still single in a carboy. I rack and SO2 every 3 months.

 

[CDrew]

I bottle at 1 year for practical reasons. ie space needed for the next year. At a year, the wine is green. It usually tastes good, but with lots of tannin. At around 2 years, I start to drink it here and there. At 3 years its usually pretty good. At 10 months, you should begin to taste it's potential-ie fruit and acid in balance, but nowhere near ready to drink. I think regardless, you'll need to wait. Bottle anytime.

 

[crushday]

Yeah I read one of your WGD adventures. It was my first time using grapes. And I'm not faulting the grapes at all, just a little surprised by what I'm tasting, hoping I'm not getting off track.

One bucket CS, one CF, two Merlot. Each fermented separately. Used the supplied BDX yeast, along with other ingredients listed above. MLB was CH16, inoculated after AF. MLF took 3 months. Then blended the CS & CF, currently in a small oak barrel and a carboy. Merlot is still single in a carboy. I rack and SO2 every 3 months.

I suspect the Merlot and the Cab are from Rattlesnake Hills? My experience with those grapes have been you describe as far as initial taste profile. I made those in 2019 and they are just beginning to come around. Probably not what you want to hear but, I’m hoping by July this coming year they’ll be a hit at my annual 4th bash.

 

[joemercurio]

I got 4 buckets of red from WGD, 3 different varietals. After 10 months of bulk aging in 4 different vessels they are all tasting quite harsh. Sour and bitter. Most recent sample is a blend, pH 3.7, TA 6. I know the stock answer is "give it time", but so far time has not been kind. There's no way I would put this in bottles tasting like that. I know others have purchased from WGD with success. Has this been your experience?

Who's WGD?

 

[Rembee]

WGD - winegrapesdirect

 

[Cap Puncher]

One bucket CS, one CF, two Merlot. Each fermented separately. Used the supplied BDX yeast, along with other ingredients listed above. MLB was CH16, inoculated after AF. MLF took 3 months. Then blended the CS & CF, currently in a small oak barrel and a carboy. Merlot is still single in a carboy. I rack and SO2 every 3 months.

I did the Rattlesnake CS 2019 and it has a hint of green tannin to it. I pressed a bit earlySG 1.004 and it had 9 days on the skins. My pH =3.83 TA was 0.67% ( I’m making 2 blends with the red mountain merlot 2018 from WGD which has lots of mature tannin). I remember WGD stating the CF had green notes to it as well. I would try a egg white fining or gelatin fining trial to reduce the tannin (or give it more time).

Was it a new oak barrel? Sometimes you can get a bunch of tannin coming over on new oak.

Also, I remember asking you about your starting Brix,and was it around 25 on the CS? The average of 6 buckets for me was 23.8 Brix. The added alcohol with the tannin may be making it seem harsher as well.

 

[winemaker81]

maybe high tannin try fining with unflavored gelatin maybe a bench trial. gelatin available in grocery store.

If the tannins are that harsh after 10 months, I agree with salcoco, fining with gelatin or egg whites may help.

 

[SLM]

The CS & CF are Rattlesnake Hills, 2019 & 2020. The Merlot is 2018 Red Mt. I do plan to blend.
Yes the 5 G barrel is new.
Thanks all for all the input, it's helpful.

 

[RylanJacobs]

I'd like to bump this thread to ask how the wines are progressing? I have a WGD order in the wings (chardonnay) and am curious about your results.

 

[Cap Puncher]

I'd like to bump this thread to ask how the wines are progressing? I have a WGD order in the wings (chardonnay) and am curious about your results.

I love my rattlesnake hills cab 81 % red mountain merlot 19%and the blend of red mountain merlot 56 %and rattlesnake hills cab 34% (with some petite Verdot and Petite Sirah too)

We did add a touch of glycerine to the cab which rounded the tannins.

The main rattlesnake hills cab beat a 94 pt Napa cab in a blind tasting night with some experienced tasters! The aroma on it is incredible. (Used Biodiva + Avante and Bravo yeast)

 

[SLM]

Being the OP, I will respond. Close to 3 years, it is still not a great wine. Harshness is gone, wine is drinkable, just boring. Sorry, my tasting notes are neanderthal.
This is number 6 of 17 wines I have made, one of my least favorites, including kits and fresh grapes. Seeing Cap Puncher's 94 BTT, I would not fault the must.