RJ Spagnols Full Reds and Topping Up

[wineforfun]

I have my first kit aging and have a question concerning topping up and the loss of product(wine).
I followed the instructions exactly as written, ie: added juice, Bentonite, skins(in bag), oak chips/dust, stirred twice a day, squeezed "skins" bag and let ferment to 1.020 then racked to carboy (I used 2 -3 gal. carboys as that is all I have). After approx. 1 week it ran dry and I let it sit for 2 more days and then racked again to 2 - 3 gal. carboys. I took the top half off each for 1 carboy and the bottom half (or as much as I could get without sucking up alot of the lees, as there was quite a bit of sediment left on the bottom) for the other carboy. I had to add 2 bottles to the "bottom half" carboy of commercial wine to top it up with.
Now, after sitting for 3 more weeks, I notice there is a fair amount of sediment building up in the bottom of each carboy. I am supposed to bottle in 2 weeks but am planning on letting it bulk age for a few more months in the carboys and racking again.
The question I have is, is this normal to be constantly losing so much wine? At this rate, I will have to add 2 more bottles of commercial wine when I keep racking. Sort of defeating the purpose of making my own, in addition to the additonal cost of the project.
Thanks for any help.

 

[bkisel]

I'm new to this with just four kits under my belt. I'm drinking the wine from the first two kits and the last two kits went to bulk aging when the instructions said to bottle. The big loss of wine for me only came with the very first racking off the gross lees. Like you I still had sediment (or what ever) fall out after the degassing,/stabilization/fining step but it was a whole lot less and the topping off after going to a fresh carboy didn't amount to much. After building up a stock of home made wine topping off even after coming off the gross lees will become less and less of a costly proposition.

"Topping up" with marbles did work for me on the second kit but it was a bit of a hassle so with kits 3 and 4 I'm back to topping with finished wine.

Oh, my 3rd kit was a grape pack kit from RJS Winery Series and wound up with more than 23L in the primary bucket. So even the first racking off the gross lees didn't require very much topping up.

 

[Rocky]

DJ asks a great question on wine yield. I know that when I started back making wine and I went to kits, I was reading on the forum that people were yielding 30 or 31 bottles of wine from a kit and I knew I was getting only 27 or 28. It was not making any sense to me because if one starts with 23 liters and loses nothing at all and then bottles into 750 ml bottles, the most one could get would be 30.66 bottles (23000/750). I though I was doing something wrong but I was not. I don't normally "top up", I usually "size down." I have a great assortment of different sized carboys, jugs and bottles to do this (see pictures below). What I believe others were doing to get the high yields was to "invest" a few bottles of store bought or other homemade wine up front and then getting it back at bottling time.

Further, I have found that a given kit of one variety will drop more sediment than one of another variety and two kits of the same variety may drop differing amounts of sediment over the aging process.

Here are some pictures of three batches that I have going. The three 6.5 liter, one 1/2 gallon plus one 1500 ml bottle is a triple batch of Sangiovese/Cabernet Sauvignon. The reason that there is more than 18 gallons of wine shown in the picture is that I enhanced the batch with blackberry fruit base and added more water to adjust the SG. The single 6.5 liter and one 1 gallon jug to the left of the triple batch is Carmenere, again enhanced with blackberry. (Yes, I like the background taste of blackberries!) The five gallon carboy and one gallon jug is a batch of Valpolicella, and this one I have topped off with some of the Sangiovese/Cabernet Sauvignon.

In addition to making wine, I like to cook. I don't expect or even want every dish I make to taste the same every time. I approach winemaking in the same manner. I am not suggesting that others follow this line of thinking but it is an alternative. Happy winemaking!

 

[wineforfun]

Thanks Rocky, that helps a little bit. Maybe instead of topping up, I need to use some of my 1 gal. carboys and downsize, through the racking phases.
I still don't get why you lose so much. You could add more water up front, to give you more starting volume before the fermenting process, but that would just drive the SG/ABV down. The kit I am doing is on track to be 13.5% ABV, so if I would have added "two bottles of water" instead of commercial OVZ, that is about a 15% reduction in wine.

 

[DoctorCAD]

On the first racking, you are supposed to take just about everything. That gives you a good starting point for the next rackings. It seems counter to what racking is supposed to do, but with kits, there is no pulp so taking most everything is OK. If you let the secondary (and beyond) sit a while, those 2 bottles worth of lees will compact on their own down to less than 1/2 a bottle. That wastes far less wine.

Over the years, I have learned that time is only your friend in wine making. Nothing bad can happen from waiting a few more months. Gravity works, use it.

 

[wineforfun]

That makes sense to let them compact over time, therefore taking up less space.
I couldn't take most everything on the first racking as I had quite a bit of sediment/gunk leftover from all the oak chips/dust.

 

[robie]

Believe me, every home wine maker has grieved over this same issue. Oh no, there's good wine left in all that sediment!!! You are not alone.

D.J., if I am understanding where you are in the process, you really don't need to top off in secondary. Strictly as far as the amount of wine you will need to top off in the end, it doesn't really matter, though.

I agree with all that was written. For kit wines, the first racking to secondary should take pretty much everything. Outside of a possible grape pack, there just isn't much in the way of gross lees. The grape pack can be placed in a straining bag so what is in it will mostly stay in the bag.

I stir the wine really well about 30 minutes before I rack to secondary (when I actually do rack between primary and secondary, which is not always). In that 30 minutes, the big stuff will settle to the bottom but the smaller, like the yeast, which you really need in secondary, will still be suspended. I then tilt the carboy so I can take everything that will go up the hose.

In secondary I don't top off. After secondary ends, there will be a new layer of fine lees. After secondary I rack down until I just see the first bit of sediment getting into the siphon hose and I pull the hose to stop siphoning.

Now for a WineXpert kit, they want you to take ALL the fine lees because their clearing process requires lots of sediment for it to work properly. Too little sediment and it won't clear as thoroughly.

After secondary and beyond, I pour the sediment into a small jar and put it in the frig for a week or so. Eventually the sediment in the jar will settle again, leaving up to a half-bottle of clean wine on top. I use a turkey baster to carefully draw off that clean wine and use it for topping off.

Of course there is still going to be some lose of wine. You will have to use marbles, rack down to a smaller carboy, or top off with a like wine. Fortunately, I have several sizes of carboys and lots of smaller glass jugs, jars, and bottles, so I never use marbles, myself.

Another way of looking at it is no one every expects you to end up with exactly thirty bottles unless you do top off with other like wine or you add extra water upfront, diluting your wine. You are always going to loose some of your wine to sedimentation.

The fact that you end up with 27 or 28 bottles of your very own wine is great. If you do top off with other wine, 2 or 3 bottles of like wine are not going to change your wine in any significant way.

 

[wineforfun]

Robie,
I took most everything when racking from the primary to the 2 secondaries. The only thing left was the gross lees and a sludge of oak chips/dust. This racking was done at the 1.020 point.
After letting it run dry (it made it to .992), I let it sit for a couple of days, then racked to 2 other secondaries. This is where I lost the two bottles worth. I did as you mentioned. I racked down until I could see the sediment starting into the cane and then stopped. After all was said and done, I needed two bottles to top up with.
I can see the "lavender" color starting in the bottom of the carboys again. Now, maybe it will just end up being a smaller layer of fine lees and I am making too much of it right now.
I was just thinking that if I continually have to top off with a couple of bottles each time, something isn't right.

Great suggestions though from everyone as far as using different size carboys (to eliminate topping off all the time), to putting the sediment in the fridge and letting it settle out. I will have to remember those things next time.

Live and learn.

 

[robie]

Robie,
I took most everything when racking from the primary to the 2 secondaries. The only thing left was the gross lees and a sludge of oak chips/dust. This racking was done at the 1.020 point.
After letting it run dry (it made it to .992), I let it sit for a couple of days, then racked to 2 other secondaries. This is where I lost the two bottles worth. I did as you mentioned. I racked down until I could see the sediment starting into the cane and then stopped. After all was said and done, I needed two bottles to top up with.
I can see the "lavender" color starting in the bottom of the carboys again. Now, maybe it will just end up being a smaller layer of fine lees and I am making too much of it right now.
I was just thinking that if I continually have to top off with a couple of bottles each time, something isn't right.

Great suggestions though from everyone as far as using different size carboys (to eliminate topping off all the time), to putting the sediment in the fridge and letting it settle out. I will have to remember those things next time.

Live and learn.

I got ya. When you said you let it set dry for 2 extra days then racked to 2 "secondaries", I think you meant you racked for clearing, not secondary fermentation.

I even put the oak in a paint strainer bag. The smallest particles still get into the wine but the bigger pieces stay in the bag. Not much you can do when the kit includes oak dust, though.

Yep, not much you can do but try to save as much as possible, then move on. Still, price-wise you are getting a real deal with even a higher priced premium kit wine compared to buying it at the store.

 

[wineforfun]

Sorry, probably was thinking one thing and typing another on the secondary fermentation.

I may do that with the oak next time, just put it in the strainer bag. It did seem to make a big mess putting it into the primary liquid.

I will start keeping the sediment in the fridge as that will cut down on the loss.

I am hoping it turns out well. They say to bottle at day 42, but I was planning on bulk aging for a few months, then bottling. Other than that, I have followed their instructions spot on.

 

[Dugger]

Topping up is the bane of home winemakers, particularly for kit wine. Two of the biggest contributors to this problem are leaving behind too much sediment at racking (as already mentioned by others) and using the ribbed Italian carboys. These are some suggestions for reducing top up that have worked for me:
1. Rack over anything that will go through the tube from primary to secondary.
2. On subsequent rackings, rack over everything but the heavy sludge and then put that sludge in a container to resettle and reclaim the wine on top.
3. Accurately mark the 23 liter level on your primary bucket so you start off right.
4. Get a smooth sided 23 L carboy (usually Mexican); the ribbed Italian ones are about 24 liters so you are one liter behind before you even start. The 3 gal ribbed ones are about 12 liters, I believe, so two of them gives you the same problem. These smooth carboys are hard to find but keep an eye out for used ones since they are very beneficial.
5. Put all grapepacks and oak dust in muslin bags to make racking cleaner and easier; squeeze these to get everything out of them when they are finished.
6. Get kits that have large grapeskin packs, wet ones preferably, since these add to the beginning volume and reduce top up needs later. Since switching to the Spagnols winery series kits, I have not had to top up at all (using smooth carboys) and usually have a surplus.
7. Minimize your number of rackings; it is not necessary to keep racking off sediment for kit wines.
8. Filter your wine. Many don't do this, but I usually do and this allows me to bottle wine that still has sediment on the bottom (well compacted after some bulk aging) and very little wine is lost.
These have helped me and some of these suggestions may be of benefit to you as well. Again, emphasis on racking over the sediment and smooth carboys.