WineXpert Get the "kit taste" out

[faxdoctor]

I'd like to thank all of you for the entertaining and enlightening dialogue in this winemakingtalk forum. I've been at it for several years now and haven't gotten away from the kits yet. Mine are usually from the WineXpert company as I've found favor with them. They're at the lower end of the cost ladder.

I always sanitize all my tools, bottles, fermentation buckets, carboys, etc. I use a product called One-Step. I always have favorable results in that my wines are usually very tasty and with relaxing mood-changer we look for in our sipping drinks.

I do sometimes experience what I read here called kit smell/taste which I haven't read a definite answer here yet. The happens almost exclusively with my reds. I make chardonnay, viognoir and sav blanc and kit smell/taste isn't here or it's undetectable.

Please let me know specifically what's causing this and how to prevent it. And, can it be removed once affected. BTW, I have noticed that I let some of my bottles of reds thus affected age for a few months more. Is this the answer?

Thank you in advance for your replies.

 

[salcoco]

potassium sorbate can be detected by some winemakers. it resembles bumble gum. if using suggest making some wines without

 

[heatherd]

Hi @faxdoctor, that "kit taste" is present in my wines from all kits, even at the higher end of cost like the Mosti Mondiali nearly $300 ones with skins. I covered it with oak and bottling/cellaring tannins. The reason is that all kits are designed to be shelf-stable and are pasteurized with heat. Same with the grape packs. Your process you described is fine and exactly what I did as well.

So then I started making wine from fresh juice buckets for whites and fresh grapes/juice buckets for reds. They're cerainly better and have no kit taste. That brings in really the need to have more equipment in terms of pH and MLF at least, even though I can easily destem/crush/press by hand with good results for my scale. That produces a wine I can make seasonally and at a slightly higher cost when making with grapes, but they need more time to come together and age. I bought a pH meter and the chemicals and found local resources for juice and grapes. I primarily did this because I wasn't happy with the kit taste but there didn't seem to be other alternatives.

Then my local grape and juice supply closed to the public and my local supply chain became less reliable during COVID. I could still get some things near me in Maryland through my local wine club with @ceeaton and @Boatboy24 and @mainshipfred.

So I switched to shipped frozen batches and did a few of those from Musto, Brehm, and Winegrapesdirect, but the cost was about $268+shipping for Cabernet Sauvignon + chems + yeast + MLB + oak + pressing by hand for 5 gallons. That's a somewhat seasonal thing too, where kits are available all year.

I have now switched to using Finer Wine Kits exclusively for kits as a result of the fact that they have created an entirely new process and they ship them fresh and cold and unpasteurized. They're precisely engineered to make with distilled water and include all chemicals you possibly need. They have lovely juice, lovely grape and seed packs, yeast starter, and the yeasts are paired with the varietal (not EC1118). No MLF is needed. They come with oak for fermentation. I use all the chemicals provided, including potassium sorbate, keiselsol, yeast starter, and the carbon used in the whites. I didnt use the yeast nutrient because the fermentation was done super fast and a bit agressive, but you certainly can. When you do the starter, use a pint glass with a paper towel on top instead of a wine bottle because the starter gets crazy!

The only thing I've used that wasn't in the kit was for my Forte series reds that are still bulk-aging was k-meta every three months. I used distilled water instead of tap or filtered.

I have currently in process (2) blushes, (2) sauvignon blancs, (1) Forte zinfadel, (1) Forte super tuscan, (1) Forte bordeaux blend, and (1) Forte pinot noir in process. I made and drank (2) batches of sauvignon blanc. They smell and taste great right away! No kit taste at all.

They're sold only through Label Peelers and are 40% off now ranging from $90-$110 with the sale price + Fedex shipping:
-Fruit: Wine Making - Wine Kits - Finer Wine Kits Frutta Series - Label Peelers
-Forte reds with seeds and double skins, designed to be aged a year: Wine Making - Wine Kits - Finer Wine Kits Forte Series - Label Peelers
-White/blush: Wine Making - Wine Kits - Finer Wine Kits Whites & Blushes - Label Peelers
-Tavola reds designed for everyday drinking: Wine Making - Wine Kits - Finer Wine Kits Tavola Reds - Label Peelers

Here are the videos on how to make them, which are done by @Matteo_Lahm (FWK) on the left and @Matt_Pruszynski (Label Peelers) on the right: Cabernet Sauvignon Forte Finer Wine Kit

Here's a thread on the kits that's pretty long:
https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/finer-wine-kits.73361/
Probably longer answer than you expected, but since I experienced it first-hand I wanted to give you all the facts.

 

[sluff]

Hi @faxdoctor, that "kit taste" is present in my wines from all kits, even at the higher end of cost like the Mosti Mondiali nearly $300 ones with skins. I covered it with oak and bottling/cellaring tannins. The reason is that all kits are designed to be shelf-stable and are pasteurized with heat. Same with the grape packs. Your process you described is fine and exactly what I did as well.

So then I started making wine from fresh juice buckets for whites and fresh grapes/juice buckets for reds. They're cerainly better and have no kit taste. That brings in really the need to have more equipment in terms of pH and MLF at least, even though I can easily destem/crush/press by hand with good results for my scale. That produces a wine I can make seasonally and at a slightly higher cost when making with grapes, but they need more time to come together and age. I bought a pH meter and the chemicals and found local resources for juice and grapes. I primarily did this because I wasn't happy with the kit taste but there didn't seem to be other alternatives.

Then my local grape and juice supply closed to the public and my local supply chain became less reliable during COVID. I could still get some things near me in Maryland through my local wine club with @ceeaton and @Boatboy24 and @mainshipfred.

So I switched to shipped frozen batches and did a few of those from Musto, Brehm, and Winegrapesdirect, but the cost was about $268+shipping for Cabernet Sauvignon + chems + yeast + MLB + oak + pressing by hand for 5 gallons. That's a somewhat seasonal thing too, where kits are available all year.

I have now switched to using Finer Wine Kits exclusively for kits as a result of the fact that they have created an entirely new process and they ship them fresh and cold and unpasteurized. They're precisely engineered to make with distilled water and include all chemicals you possibly need. They have lovely juice, lovely grape and seed packs, yeast starter, and the yeasts are paired with the varietal (not EC1118). No MLF is needed. They come with oak for fermentation. I use all the chemicals provided, including potassium sorbate, keiselsol, yeast starter, and the carbon used in the whites. I didnt use the yeast nutrient because the fermentation was done super fast and a bit agressive, but you certainly can. When you do the starter, use a pint glass with a paper towel on top instead of a wine bottle because the starter gets crazy!

The only thing I've used that wasn't in the kit was for my Forte series reds that are still bulk-aging was k-meta every three months. I used distilled water instead of tap or filtered.

I have currently in process (2) blushes, (2) sauvignon blancs, (1) Forte zinfadel, (1) Forte super tuscan, (1) Forte bordeaux blend, and (1) Forte pinot noir in process. I made and drank (2) batches of sauvignon blanc. They smell and taste great right away! No kit taste at all.

They're sold only through Label Peelers and are 40% off now ranging from $90-$110 with the sale price + Fedex shipping:
-Fruit: Wine Making - Wine Kits - Finer Wine Kits Frutta Series - Label Peelers
-Forte reds with seeds and double skins, designed to be aged a year: Wine Making - Wine Kits - Finer Wine Kits Forte Series - Label Peelers
-White/blush: Wine Making - Wine Kits - Finer Wine Kits Whites & Blushes - Label Peelers
-Tavola reds designed for everyday drinking: Wine Making - Wine Kits - Finer Wine Kits Tavola Reds - Label Peelers

Here are the videos on how to make them, which are done by @Matteo_Lahm (FWK) on the left and @Matt_Pruszynski (Label Peelers) on the right: Cabernet Sauvignon Forte Finer Wine Kit

Here's a thread on the kits that's pretty long:
https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/finer-wine-kits.73361/
Probably longer answer than you expected, but since I experienced it first-hand I wanted to give you all the facts.

I have 6 Finer Wine kits in process (bulk aging) and 2 bottled. I found the following comment: “precisely engineered to make with distilled water” interesting. I was not aware of this and I have used a mixture of spring and well water with these kits. I have consistently had trouble getting the Finer Wine kits to clear (I have to hit them twice with Kieselsol & Chitsosan to get them to clear) I wonder if that’s why…

 

[Rice_Guy]

used a mixture of spring and well water) I wonder if that’s why…

If your water is rich in iron or copper it would make sense. Iron can be prevented by adding citric acid. From childhood the well was high iron and stained toilets and sinks. Normal/ potable water won’t have high copper.

 

[sluff]

If your water is rich in iron or copper it would make sense. Iron can be prevented by adding citric acid. From childhood the well was high iron and stained toilets and sinks. Normal/ potable water won’t have high copper.

Thanks for your post. The well water that I use is from a sand point. 0 gains of hardness and pH of 7…. I checked the FWK instructions and didn’t find directions to use distilled water… I have always read that distilled water should not be used to make wine…

 

[Rice_Guy]

Thanks for your post. The well water that I use is from a sand point. 0 gains of hardness and pH of 7…. I checked the FWK instructions and didn’t find directions to use distilled water… I have always read that distilled water should not be used to make wine…

In the scheme of things, if I am running a vacuum evaporator making concentrate the stuff coming off I’d distilled. ,,,, doesn’t really matter.

 

[heatherd]

I believe the directions to use distilled water came from @Matteo_Lahm in the FWK thread. I use that for the starter and the rest of th kit and have had 100% success in clearing with the included ingredients.

 

[bstnh1]

Thanks for your post. The well water that I use is from a sand point. 0 gains of hardness and pH of 7…. I checked the FWK instructions and didn’t find directions to use distilled water… I have always read that distilled water should not be used to make wine…

"Step 1, Preparing the must", in the current instructions on the Label Peelers site, says to use distilled water. I use spring water and have not has any issues.

 

[Shurt1073]

+1 for the FWK .... @heatherd posts sorta says it all for me which is why I switched. Takes my kit wine making to a new level with frozen/cold juice unpasteurized, instead of warm pasteurized juice bags, and creating a yeast starter vs sprinkling dry yeast on top of the must. The instruction booklet is found on line, read it a few times and when the booklet arrives with the kit you will see it's very professional.

Family member is making a WineXert Pinot Noir and I'm making the FWK Pinot Noir .... it will be interesting to see the difference.

 

[AR324]

"Step 1, Preparing the must", in the current instructions on the Label Peelers site, says to use distilled water. I use spring water and have not has any issues.

I’ve done both and haven’t had a problem. I actually like using Saratoga Spring water because it’s very good and local.

 

[Mekpdue]

Adding in my 2cents. We have well water and it’s a stain monster with high iron and calcium. We will cook with it, but we’ve never gotten used to the taste (we drink 5gal bottled RO water), I wouldn’t even think to use our well water for wine. My belief is it would harm the final product. For all my kits: FWK, WE, RJS, I use spring water off the shelf from my grocers. I used to use distilled water for starting the yeast, but now use spring water for that with no issues.

 

[bstnh1]

Adding in my 2cents. We have well water and it’s a stain monster with high iron and calcium. We will cook with it, but we’ve never gotten used to the taste (we drink 5gal bottled RO water), I wouldn’t even think to use our well water for wine. My belief is it would harm the final product. For all my kits: FWK, WE, RJS, I use spring water off the shelf from my grocers. I used to use distilled water for starting the yeast, but now use spring water for that with no issues.

We had high iron and high manganese. Pentek has a big blue carbon filter that takes care of it.

 

[BABRU]

My softened well water tastes fine. It is fairly high in iron and manganese. Been using it in all my wines with no off taste issues whatsoever.