Got off the Phone with the Fermaid people

[seth8530]

So, I was having a very interesting conversation with deezil about which of the fermaid products is best suited for what situations. And after trading multiple technical docs and discussing them I decided to call the kind folks up at Fermaid. This is what I learned.

Fermaid O is the ideal nutrient to use whenever you can use it. This means pretty much most things that have a somewhat decent nitrogen content. It will result in an overall really balanced steady fermentation. Fermaid O uses amino based nitrogen which the yeast can still utilize even when the yeast reaches the point that cant use DAP. Also, avoid using nutrients after the 1/2 mark unless the wine makes signs of being distressed. Then it would be fine to use something like fermaid O to help it out. But you do not want to overload it with too much because it might not use it all.

Now, for the mead the puzzle is trickier. A mixture of Fermaid O/DAP or Fermaid K might be what you want to use on the onset to help fermentation out since it has so little nitrogen in it. So perhaps use some Fermaid O and K at the onset and then eventually switch her on over Fermaid O entirely since DAP does indeed help fermentation accelerate better at the onset....perhaps too much..... Also, always use a rehydration nutrient because that can help the fermentation out through the whole process.

So take home message, Fermaid O rocks when you can use it. When you can't, try using it in conjunction with Fermaid K or DAP to help make up for really large nitrogen needs. Then switch back to Fermaid O. Also, Fermaid O works better than DAP in the late phases of fermentation since it is a amino acid based nitrogen source.

 

[Deezil]

The very beginning of this healthy conversation starts here, with a PDF brochure provided by Jswordy.. After successfully derailing that thread, I sent Seth a PM.

Some highlights:

That was kind of along the lines of what I was thinking/reading myself, although all the reading that i've done about yeast and organic sources of nitrogen vs DAP make me really really hesitant to start a fermentation with anything containing DAP anymore..

I've noticed the difference in my wines already, using Fermaid-O, as well as Booster Blanc/Rouge, another inactivated yeast product to help smooth mid-palette and reinforce aromatics.. This batch of peach I made last fall, while using roughly the same amount of fruit per gallon, but with additions of only-Fermaid-O, adding Booster Blanc, and I think I even added FT Blanc Soft, a tannin blend offered by Scotts Lab / Lallemand.... It KILLS my first batch of peach, by miles, and it's still 'green'/young

The problem with starting a fermentation on DAP lies in the fact that while organic amino acid forms of nitrogen make for healthier yeast, yeast view DAP like we think of sugar/crack - they aim for it, crave it, and when they run out of it, theres a lag-phase between when they run out of DAP and start to actually consume the amino acids.. This lag phase is when the colony dies off, Funk makes its appearance (because they arent up-taking nutrients during the switch)... It takes them time to switch the pathways up for metabolization whereas its a seamless transition from amino acids to DAP because you're going from complex pathways (organic) to simple pathways (DAP)

On the flip side like I noted earlier, DAP isnt readily consumed after a certain extent.. These two factors generally limit the use of DAP in my mind, and couple that with the fact that it causes the heat spikes, yeast-colony spikes, H2S spikes when said-colony dies off, etc... I'm not a fan

Fermaid-A & Fermaid-K both seem to have steady work in low-YAN musts though, and for that I'll always have some on-hand.

Yeah, I've read that Fermaid-O / amino acid nitrogen sources can be added to the Must prior to yeast pitch, but not to the yeast starter... And I remember reading not to add DAP in any amount, prior to or at yeast pitch, but I dont remember reading the 'why' of it.

And I always use Go-Ferm in my starters, which supplies some of the same nutrients that Fermaid-K/-A have, but -O doesn't, so in the beginning / at pitch, thats where the yeast source those nutrients from.. So you kind of get the same thing as Fermaid-K, using leftover Go-Ferm + Fermaid-O, just without any DAP.. That was my understanding on it, anyway, at the beginning of fermentation; and my justification for doing things the way I have..

Then to throw a friggin wrench in it all last night.. I've been using Booster Blanc / Booster Rouge... Come to find out, they're classified as nutrients as well; I didn't know.. I knew they were made of inactivated yeast though, so I dont know why it didnt click. But now theres the search for what parts of hte yeast they are, and how those chemicals interact with the Fermaid lines, and if when using Booster Blanc + Fermaid-O, do I really lose anything from not using Fermaid-K/-A?

For any interested, these are most of the PDF's that were discussed

I came across another product, Fermaid-A; appears to be a blend of -K & -O

Then there's this PDF, with its chart on page 2
And then this PDF, showing Fermaid-O's efficiency over DAP in chart 1

Then there's this PDF, from Lallemand with some interesting tidbits in it

 

[seth8530]

Yep, one thing I would like to add is that fermaid A was made so that they could export a product because some of the things in fermaid K did did not make border crossings so well.. Hence A was developed.

 

[garymc]

Is the DAP used to seal the airlock into the stopper? Do you recommend latex DAP or the more expensive silicone version?

 

[Deezil]

DAP - Diammonium phosphate, a source of YAN (yeast-assimilable nitrogen)

 

[garymc]

Oh. Well, I knew it wasn't Download Accelerator Plus.

 

[garymc]

Looks like I need to look into this Fermaid stuff. The brand of yeast nutrient I've been using is "yeast nutrient."

 

[Deezil]

Looks like I need to look into this Fermaid stuff. The brand of yeast nutrient I've been using is "yeast nutrient."

This is what I started off making wine with myself, and its pretty much almost completely DAP.


Fermaid-O, Fermaid-K, Fermaid-A - all made by the same company that makes Go-Ferm.

They also make 'inactivated yeast' products called Booster Blanc (white wines) & Booster Rouge (red wines), that are classified as 'yeast nutrients', so I've got more digging to do to see how these will interact/balance out the different uses of Fermaid-O/-K/-A.

I've used Booster Blanc/Rouge both with success, and I personally believe in their use alongside Go-Ferm + Fermaid-O; I just crave to know the "how's" and the "why's" of what I've experienced. First Seth got dragged in, and now here we are

Also found this for Booster Blanc & Booster Rouge

Might as well explore Opti-White & Opti-Red while I'm doing all this

As per this page,
"The absolute best time to add Opti-Red or Booster Rouge is in the must.

Opti-Red and Booster Rouge have a high natural content of reactive yeast polysaccharides. These polysaccharides will complex with anthocyanins and tannins as soon as they are released from the skin and result in a wine with fuller structure and enhanced mouthfeel.

If you wait to make the Opti-Red or Booster Rouge addition until mid-fermentation, there are fewer polyphenols available to complex with the polysaccharides in Opti-Red or Booster Rouge.
Opti-Red and Booster Rouge additions, even in a finished wine, will still make a positive contribution but the effect will not be as dramatic."

 

[garymc]

I'm not worthy

 

[garymc]

Seriously, I've been casting about looking for the yeast strain that will allow the fruitiness of muscadines to be reflected in the wine. So I went from EC-1118 to 71B-1122. This was also because I observed that the must started out high in acid and ended up lower in acid.
After getting a whif of the yeast nutrient I've been using I knew it wasn't something you wanted left undigested in the wine. So I've used it in amounts slightly less than listed in the recipes. I particularly liked the mention by Seth the info about the amino nitrogen and the steadier fermentation.

 

[seth8530]

Seriously, I've been casting about looking for the yeast strain that will allow the fruitiness of muscadines to be reflected in the wine. So I went from EC-1118 to 71B-1122. This was also because I observed that the must started out high in acid and ended up lower in acid.
After getting a whif of the yeast nutrient I've been using I knew it wasn't something you wanted left undigested in the wine. So I've used it in amounts slightly less than listed in the recipes. I particularly liked the mention by Seth the info about the amino nitrogen and the steadier fermentation.

The thing about nutrient is that you do not need per say how much the recipie says, but you need how much the must needs. For instance, if you wanted to know how much fermaid O to use you would first need to find out or estimate the YAN content of the must then find out the YAN content of the nutrient you are using and use that to determine how much to add to the must. Also, I am too drawn in by the idea of a slower more evened out fermentation by using fermaid O because I feel like that might help respect the character and fruity ness of the grape/fruit better than say a faster more aggressive fermentation. BTW good choice of yeast.

 

[Brew and Wine Supply]

Looks like I need to look into this Fermaid stuff. The brand of yeast nutrient I've been using is "yeast nutrient."

I've been keeping Deezil supplied for a while now. here is a link to them: http://brewandwinesupply.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=17_98_116

 

[Downwards]

Assuming YAN is yeast available nitrogen, how do you determine the YAN of a must?

 

[seth8530]

Now that is an interesting question. I am sure there is a test you could preform.. But for you and me we might be best off looking that up in some available research or perhaps a table somewhere.

 

[wood1954]

so, do you think kit wines have a yeast nutrient added?

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

OK Seth, here is your homework: Find the YAN of:

elderberries
black raspberries
red raspberries
currants, black
blackberries
cherries
peaches
mulberries
apples

sorry if I missed anyones favorites WVMJ

I have been thinking about sending in some samples to have tested just to see as a baseline, not sure if there is a testing lab near us or not.

Now that is an interesting question. I am sure there is a test you could preform.. But for you and me we might be best off looking that up in some available research or perhaps a table somewhere.

 

[seth8530]

Plegh lol, Ill see if i can find anything.

 

[Deezil]

YAN levels change from crop to crop, area to area, year to year..

Might find guidelines for specific years but I don't know if I'd use those as a rule of thumb..


Inorganic nitrogen (think DAP) can be calculated using an ammonia probe.
Organic nitrogen can be calculated using formol titration or the NOPA method.

I've done light reading on these methods but not enough to regurgitate it with any confidence that i'd be 100% correct. Those are the method names though, and theres white papers describing the process and equipment needed

 

[jswordy]

Seriously, I've been casting about looking for the yeast strain that will allow the fruitiness of muscadines to be reflected in the wine. So I went from EC-1118 to 71B-1122. This was also because I observed that the must started out high in acid and ended up lower in acid.
After getting a whif of the yeast nutrient I've been using I knew it wasn't something you wanted left undigested in the wine. So I've used it in amounts slightly less than listed in the recipes. I particularly liked the mention by Seth the info about the amino nitrogen and the steadier fermentation.

Gary, in my Moonshiner's Muscadine, I used Fermaid O and RC212. It is resting in the carboy and it is already the best wine I have ever made of anything. I am scared of messing it up, it is so good. And it is still young. Maybe you'll try a test batch this fall.

Soon I will cold stabilize it and get ready to bottle.

 

[jswordy]

DAP - Diammonium phosphate, a source of YAN (yeast-assimilable nitrogen)

Same stuff you get in your Scott's bag for your grass, too. LOL. True! It's the most common phosphorous fertilizer in the world, IIRC.