Grape skin addition

[wineview]

There is a local winery/vineyard a few miles away from my home in upstate NY. The owner invited me to come help out with racking and bottling this weekendI am excited to see the process. He offered me as many pounds of skins that I'd like after pressing in Sept - Oct. Two questions: The pressing may not coincide with my wine making schedule as I pick up my juice mid September. Having said that, can I add the skins after my fermentation is complete? Also, does it matter if the skins are from a different varietal than the wine I am making?

Thanks
WV

 

[heatherd]

Sounds fun!

The varietal being different may be a good way to add complexity to you wine. I've done that in the past where I'm making Italian wines from fresh juice and I'll split the grapes between the batches and generally just aim for a similar region. My goal is to have the juice and grapes ferment together as that's beneficial.

If the harvests don't align, I'd ferment the skins by themselves, press, then add into your juice at whatever phase it is.

 

[wineview]

Sounds fun!

The varietal being different may be a good way to add complexity to you wine. I've done that in the past where I'm making Italian wines from fresh juice and I'll split the grapes between the batches and generally just aim for a similar region. My goal is to have the juice and grapes ferment together as that's beneficial.

If the harvests don't align, I'd ferment the skins by themselves, press, then add into your juice at whatever phase it is.

Never fermented skins alone. Are there any tricks to it? Also, I don't have a press. Any home grown ideas on how to press the skins?

 

[Ohio Bob]

I suspect you will have way more skins than you need so a number of experiments are in your future.

But, the majority of flavor has been pressed out of the skins, so in my opinion, refermenting will not be a huge success. Maybe a rose or blush but not a bold red.

I don’t see why you can use the skins for any red. They will add tannins and complexity.

I would freeze in small packs any leftovers so you can use in subsequent years.

Great find!

 

[heatherd]

Never fermented skins alone. Are there any tricks to it? Also, I don't have a press. Any home grown ideas on how to press the skins?

If the pressed skins seem too dry to ferment you can add a little of your juice buckets to them.

You don't really need a press. I use a metal mesh kitchen strainer that I stick onto my fermenter bucket and spoon the grapes into that a bit at a time, and push them with my hand - my goal isn't to wrench every bit out, more in between free run and a press in terms of pressure and yield. Strainer is like this one from Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/KitchenAid-E...6&sprefix=expandable+kitchen+st,aps,71&sr=8-2

I also put oak chips/dust in my fermentations so that's important to add up front to your buckets to have tannins since you'll not have the benefit of the skins right away.

Are you doing MLF? If so, you'll likely want to do all your fermentation and pressing and re-combine so you've got thing ready to sit for MLF for however long it takes before you stabilize. Oak spirals or xoakers are good to add at this time, too, as MLB like oak in my readings. I like VP41 for my MLB and you can split between batches up to 66 gallons.

 

[wineview]

I suspect you will have way more skins than you need so a number of experiments are in your future.

But, the majority of flavor has been pressed out of the skins, so in my opinion, refermenting will not be a huge success. Maybe a rose or blush but not a bold red.

I don’t see why you can use the skins for any red. They will add tannins and complexity.

I would freeze in small packs any leftovers so you can use in subsequent years.

Great find!

Just to be clear. Even though my primary may be finished, I could add them for a few weeks in a sealed bucket?

 

[wineview]

If the pressed skins seem too dry to ferment you can add a little of your juice buckets to them.

You don't really need a press. I use a metal mesh kitchen strainer that I stick onto my fermenter bucket and spoon the grapes into that a bit at a time, and push them with my hand - my goal isn't to wrench every bit out, more in between free run and a press in terms of pressure and yield. Strainer is like this one from Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/KitchenAid-Expandable-Stainless-Steel-Colander/dp/B085N9KZ63/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1KA1PKKRRCKBK&keywords=expandable+kitchen+strainer&qid=1654201386&sprefix=expandable+kitchen+st,aps,71&sr=8-2

I also put oak chips/dust in my fermentations so that's important to add up front to your buckets to have tannins since you'll not have the benefit of the skins right away.

Are you doing MLF? If so, you'll likely want to do all your fermentation and pressing and re-combine so you've got thing ready to sit for MLF for however long it takes before you stabilize. Oak spirals or xoakers are good to add at this time, too, as MLB like oak in my readings. I like VP41 for my MLB and you can split between batches up to 66 gallons.

Funny you mention MLF. I tried it on 3 six gallon carboys last year and don’t feel I had a great success. Chromatography test showed one carboy finished but not the other two. I finally racked all of them after five months and added Kmeta. In two of the three I added oak spirals. It’s all an experiment and I’m thinking if I leave them in bulk long enough, they may turn out ok.

 

[heatherd]

Funny you mention MLF. I tried it on 3 six gallon carboys last year and don’t feel I had a great success. Chromatography test showed one carboy finished but not the other two. I finally racked all of them after five months and added Kmeta. In two of the three I added oak spirals. It’s all an experiment and I’m thinking if I leave them in bulk long enough, they may turn out ok.

The bacteria you use makes a difference. I have had bad luck with all the liquid ones, okay luck with some of the other powders, but great luck with VP41. I over-add to be sure I get enough in all the batches.

 

[wineview]

The bacteria you use makes a difference. I have had bad luck with all the liquid ones, okay luck with some of the other powders, but great luck with VP41. I over-add to be sure I get enough in all the batches.

I am going from memory here. I used a 66 gallon package of ch35 in 18 gallons. And still….

 

[winemaker81]

Having said that, can I add the skins after my fermentation is complete? Also, does it matter if the skins are from a different varietal than the wine I am making?

The short answer is yes, you can add the skins after the juice is done fermenting. The danger is oxidation.

Extended maceration is soaking the skins in the wine for a period after fermentation completes, with the caveat that the fermenter is sealed before fermentation completes, so the emitted CO2 drives out the air and protects the wine while it's soaking. If you add the skins to a post-fermentation wine, you won't have that protection.

I assume pomace from a commercial winery will be fairly dry, e.g., well pressed, so there won't be much "oomph" left in the pomace. If I'm correct, you'll need a lot of pomace to get much benefit, and you'll need to press pomace hard else you'll be leaving a lot of wine behind in.

You could make a 2nd run wine from the pomace, but it's more likely to be rather weak. The recipe I was taught was to add 1 gallon of water for each 2 gallons of wine that was taken from the pomace. For commercially pressed pomace, I'd go with a 1 to 4 ratio. It costs little to try, and you might get a decent result.

 

[wineview]

The short answer is yes, you can add the skins after the juice is done fermenting. The danger is oxidation.

Extended maceration is soaking the skins in the wine for a period after fermentation completes, with the caveat that the fermenter is sealed before fermentation completes, so the emitted CO2 drives out the air and protects the wine while it's soaking. If you add the skins to a post-fermentation wine, you won't have that protection.

I assume pomace from a commercial winery will be fairly dry, e.g., well pressed, so there won't be much "oomph" left in the pomace. If I'm correct, you'll need a lot of pomace to get much benefit, and you'll need to press pomace hard else you'll be leaving a lot of wine behind in.

You could make a 2nd run wine from the pomace, but it's more likely to be rather weak. The recipe I was taught was to add 1 gallon of water for each 2 gallons of wine that was taken from the pomace. For commercially pressed pomace, I'd go with a 1 to 4 ratio. It costs little to try, and you might get a decent result.

"Extended maceration is soaking the skins in the wine for a period after fermentation completes, with the caveat that the fermenter is sealed before fermentation completes, so the emitted CO2 drives out the air and protects the wine while it's soaking. If you add the skins to a post-fermentation wine, you won't have that protection."

If I were to add K Meta would that give me the protection I need?

 

[winemaker81]

If I were to add K Meta would that give me the protection I need?

I don't believe so. You are potentially dealing with a lot of O2, and the risk of oxidation is too great (IMO).

But I do have a crazy idea -- If the ABV of your wine is not too high, add a measured amount of sugar when you add the grape skins, and kick off a new ferment. You'll have the yeast remaining in the wine plus whatever's in the pomace. Sugar to increase the ABV by 1/2% is probably sufficient to produce enough CO2.

 

[wineview]

I don't believe so. You are potentially dealing with a lot of O2, and the risk of oxidation is too great (IMO).

But I do have a crazy idea -- If the ABV of your wine is not too high, add a measured amount of sugar when you add the grape skins, and kick off a new ferment. You'll have the yeast remaining in the wine plus whatever's in the pomace. Sugar to increase the ABV by 1/2% is probably sufficient to produce enough CO2.

Should Ire-pitch some new yeast as well?

 

[winemaker81]

Should Ire-pitch some new yeast as well?

I've never done so with a 2nd run wine. The pomace is full of yeast, so it's unnecessary.

 

[Ohio Bob]

I’ve never done it either but I suspect the yeast in the pomace is on its last legs, almost near death from the alcohol it produced. Adding new sugars might shock it and get stuck. Fresh yeast is cheap insurance for all the work you’re going to be putting into it.

 

[winemaker81]

I’ve never done it either but I suspect the yeast in the pomace is on its last legs, almost near death from the alcohol it produced. Adding new sugars might shock it and get stuck. Fresh yeast is cheap insurance for all the work you’re going to be putting into it.

My experience is the opposite. Unless the wine is at the top end of the yeast's ABV tolerance, it's not on its "last legs". If anything, it's looking for food. A light dose of sugar is step feeding.

 

[wineview]

I don't believe so. You are potentially dealing with a lot of O2, and the risk of oxidation is too great (IMO).

But I do have a crazy idea -- If the ABV of your wine is not too high, add a measured amount of sugar when you add the grape skins, and kick off a new ferment. You'll have the yeast remaining in the wine plus whatever's in the pomace. Sugar to increase the ABV by 1/2% is probably sufficient to produce enough CO2.

How much sugar for 6 gallons?

 

[winemaker81]

How much sugar for 6 gallons?

1 lb sugar raises the SG of 1 US gallon of water by 0.045. Divide that by 6 to produce 0.0075.

So if you have 6 gallons of wine at 1.000, adding 1 lb sugar increases the SG to 1.0075, which should produce enough CO2 to protect the wine during EM without having the ABV too much.

Adding 1.5 lbs will push that SG to roughly 1.011, if you want a stronger buffer.

 

[wineview]

1 lb sugar raises the SG of 1 US gallon of water by 0.045. Divide that by 6 to produce 0.0075.

So if you have 6 gallons of wine at 1.000, adding 1 lb sugar increases the SG to 1.0075, which should produce enough CO2 to protect the wine during EM without having the ABV too much.

Adding 1.5 lbs will push that SG to roughly 1.011, if you want a stronger buffer.

Thanks for the information. I’m hoping the skins are available at the same time as I am doing my primary.

 

[wineview]

I suspect you will have way more skins than you need so a number of experiments are in your future.

But, the majority of flavor has been pressed out of the skins, so in my opinion, refermenting will not be a huge success. Maybe a rose or blush but not a bold red.

I don’t see why you can use the skins for any red. They will add tannins and complexity.

I would freeze in small packs any leftovers so you can use in subsequent years.

Great find!

Here we go. Where do I start. Coming from a brewing background I have always been super conscious of sanitation and carried that over to my winemaking. So this morning I walk into this small time vineyard operation. Four acres of grapes or 200 gallons a year. Sanitation was absent. Rinse a carboy with a hose from a well that had a strong sulphuric odor and rack the wine directly into it. When I questioned him he said, “all I ever do is add some SO2. After all it is 12% alcohol so I’m not worried”. I did witness that. But hoses looked dirty strapped to a piece of bamboo with yarn that often laid on a dirty concrete floor right before sticking it in the carboy. I sampled some of what we were racking and it had that distinct fizzy ness to it. I asked about degassing and they gave me a look like I had three heads. Then they offered a sample of a 2004 Sherry. I’m not a fan of thick syrupy Sherry but I was their guest so tried it. To my surprise it didn’t taste like sherry at all. It was a well balanced dry red wine with a touch of alcohol so go figure. Are we all doing it completely wrong? It was an eye opener.