Mosti Mondiale "Grigionay" bubbles that won't die!

[OilnH2O]

I have an All Juice, "Grigionay" kit that was started quite some time ago, done exactly according to the instructions (including stirring (degassing) for CO2 at the appropriate times) and then put into a carboy for bulk aging - now at over 18 months. Six weeks ago, I checked for free SO2, added some campden tablets (that it called for), stirred to get the solution distributed into the 6 gallon carboy and let it set for 3-4 weeks. I went to bottle after it was beautifully clear, and found that there was excessive foam in the first couple of bottles. I stirred and found it foamed easily. So, for the next two days I stirred with a whip (drill) twice a day (total of 4 times). Then, I let it settle for two weeks. I just went to bottle again, and found the same thing -- excessive foam in the bottle.

I took that first bottle yesterday, gave it to my taste-testers (lots at T'giving) and while everyone seemed to like the taste "okay" there was a subtle bite or sharpness at the finish. I left that bottle open, and at the end of the evening when clean-up was done stuck in my thumb... and shook! In the bottle, the wine had tiny bubbles like moonshine (if you know how that shakes up) and a foamy 1/2 inch head that took 40-45 seconds to go down, leaving bubbles around the edge for more than a minute before they disappeared. I left the bottle out, un-corked, overnight to see if it would go "flat." But, today, a good shake still produces bubbles. Then, a vacu-vin on the bottle produces very fine, barely able to see bubbles that rise to the surface where they gather and slowly dissipate....

I'm stumped. One wine-making friend suggested some sort of bacteria may be producing CO2... but a search here and elsewhere, including my books, hasn't turned anything similar up.

Any ideas??? I have to fix it or dump it!

(Hey - maybe that's good wine reality show title: Fix it! Or Dump It!)

 

[cpfan]

How did you degas this wine? Sure sounds like it could be CO2.

BTW, IMO, letting it sit in a carboy for 18 months doesn't degas the wine.

Steve

 

[grapeman]

It sounds like it has had ample time to degass. I find that some whites with more body have a tendancy to create a bit of foam when handled. I figure that is a good thing as it tells me there will be more mouthfeel in it. I would go ahead and bottle it as long as the sulfites were up where they belong. Time in the bottle will smooth it out and probably get rid of the bit of bite to it. I like to get the whites bottled before a year old as most whites tend to go downhill quicker than reds.

 

[OilnH2O]

Steve, as above, I use a battery-powered drill with a wine whip. Was used according to the kit instructions at the appropriate times. Usually I whip for about twice as long as recommended in the kit instructions. After the 18 months when I "re-stirred" it was the same -- drill and whip several times over a couple of days.

Rich, I agree - the biggest thing is the bottle I filled Thanksgiving. That bottle has been left un-capped and just sitting at room temperature, and STILL gives off bubbles and foam with a good shake - even just a minute ago. It seems something else has to be going on since it has been out and exposed to the air about 48 hours now, and still foams!

I guess my point here is that I don't think it is normal CO2 degassing issue -- it seems like it has to be something else. And I'm open to anyone else's guesses!

 

[derunner]

This really sounds like my experience with my first bottling. The is a bit of sour taste at the end of sip. I was using a drill and stir rod paddle degassing tool. It never seemed to get any gas despite using it for long periods in both forward and reverse directions.

I have 3 wines clearing now, and used the drill rod/paddle on each. I then used a vacu vin pump and stopper and found I have a lot of gas in them. I used a paddle spoon whipping it back and forth and that brought out far more gas than the drill mounted paddles. So I have now used the spoon paddle a couple times, and then got a brake bleeding kit as mention in some other de-gassing threads. After a couple hours of pumping up a 22in vacuum, I no longer get any more bubbles out of the wine. So I hope the wine is now degassed. It is a lot of work per batch to do it this way.

I have just ordered myself one of the allinone wine pumps and it seems all the reviews say this does an excellent job of degassing wine as you rack. So I hope this job becomes much easier in the near future.

 

[OilnH2O]

I haven't had this issue before, even when degassing as you describe with the drill and "stir-rod paddle" as you describe (what I use as well). This is maybe my 11th or 12th kit, plus fruit wines and wine from grapes -- and I've never experienced this before.

I put the thread into the "kit wine" part of the forum and even in the Mosti part as well (because it made me do it!) -- but I think (but obviously don't know!) that this is a different issue.

For example, I'd be curious if the "de-gassing" issue is only a kit-wine issue, or includes fruit wines, or even from grapes.

So, maybe I need to expand the thread to a larger audience??

 

[ibglowin]

Dave,

You left out one important clue here. How does the wine taste to you! You can taste CO2. Especially on the tongue. What have you added to the wine. Any Sorbate? The foam could be caused by something added. My experience has been that white kit wines degas easier on their own (usually) than red kit wines. Fresh fruit wines usually degas on their own without the need for degassing. Kits for some reason (perhaps its the process of using concentrated juice) just take a long time or need mechanical assistance.

Let your taste buds be your guide on this mystery.

 

[OilnH2O]

Thanks, Mike

As in my first post, my taste testers knew when they began to taste it that it was one of my wines. They weren't told of a problem, but they also know that a homemade white isn't going to taste like a Cakebread Chardonnay! But, too, all agreed it tasted "okay" or "fine" with just some sort of bite on the finish. My wife even thought it was a little like when there is a taste of alcohol in a new wine.

But, it is not a CO2 taste as you describe. IN FACT, just now, I went over to the counter where the bottle has been sitting, open, since Thanksgiving morning (that's 4 days for those who read this later!) and shook it. That's thumb in the bottle, 4 or 5 back-and-forth shakes and set on the counter. No "pop" when the thumb comes out (as you'd get with pressure of CO2) yet a good 1/2 to 3/4 an inch of foamy head that dissipates in about a minute, but after two minutes still leaves a rim of bubbles around the edge, and, if you look close, you can still see very tiny, fine bubbles slowly rising in the wine. I tasted it, and it was a different taste from last Thursday, but still drinkable, but something off-putting - but no bad smell, not a "yech!" and spit-it-out reaction.

Oh, and no sorbate or anything else added -- just as the kit directions said. Then some addition of campden tablets about 2 months ago to bring the ppm up before letting it settle again to bottle. I tasted it then, when I did the test, but tasted fine -- a kit wine white -- but not even the dreaded "kit wine taste."

You and I know we all want to learn from what we're doing - and I'd like to figure this out! That's why I'm trying to get this out wider than just those reading a kit-wine post in the MOSTI threads!

Thanks for taking a look -
Dave

Pictures below -- first is before shaking; second is after shaking back-and-forth 5 times; third is one minute after shaking.
(NOTE - two additional close-ups in the NEXT POST!)

 

[OilnH2O]

Close-up pictures

Two close-ups -- first is after shaking; second is about 1 and 1/2 minutes after shaking - if you look close on the left, you can see shadows of very tiny bubbles, and on the right, the bubbles against the darker background.

Any ideas from anyone can help!

 

[ibglowin]

That is CRAZY! I just don't see how that could be normal "off gasing". Seems WAY to much. Could be a bacterial bug. Do you have MLB in the winery these days? Maybe you had a spontaneous MLF in the bottle.

I would forward these to George and let him look at them. Just never seen anything like this. And it wasn't back sweetened right?

 

[OilnH2O]

No back-sweetening!

MLF? Maybe - but a little bit of K-meta in that bottle should kill it, right? I could try that....

I like the idea about checking with George. (He was out of the country - Italy I think- a few weeks ago... nice!)

 

[bein_bein]

I would also contact the company that makes this kit to see if there was something 'off' with your particular 'batch'. Who knows... you might even get another kit out of it if they are serious about keeping you as a customer. Almost looks like there is some sort of fermentation still going on. I had a batch of concord wine resart after 8mo in the carboy and 4months in the bottles. Lost 7 bottles to popped corks. Threw em' all back in the carboy and that's where they still are, 2 months later...
What are your SG readings?

 

[ckassotis]

What do you clean your stuff with? I have seen foaming like that after cleaning carboys/bottles with acid-based cleaners such as Star San if not diluted or rinsed off appropriately.

 

[ke3ju]

I like where Chris is going with this. It doesn't seem like a degassing issue to me. You need a protein structure for lasting foam like that. It would be like shaking a bottle of soapy water.

It could be any protein though. Pectin maybe?

Ed

 

[OilnH2O]

Could be sanitation -- that can always be an issue. Although everything is cleaned with Straight A and then sanitized with sodium (NA) meta. And, I haven't thought it was a degassing issue which is why I keep bumping the post Pectin? I don't know -- there was no "pectin haze." In fact, it was clear as the proverbial bell before I started the first bottling - which was when I first saw the foamy-ness in the bottles. And, clear when I went to bottle it Thanksgiving morning.

Hmmm.... thanks! I'm glad for your input.

Dave

 

[ckassotis]

Not familiar with Straight A, but it does appear to be a basic cleaner, as opposed to acidic. It is one of the "mix x amount with 1 gallon water" though, and these tend to really need you to do just that. Some people ignore that step, or mix it with far less than the required gallon. A rinse with K meta would not remove a very concentrated alkaline solution completely.

The protein idea is quite possible as well though. Without a noticeable haze, I can't say for sure. Most of the kits shouldn't have a pectin problem very likely, but hard to say if it could be some other protein. Interesting issue though. Wish I had a more clear answer for ya.

 

[derunner]

Do you have any form of a vacuum pump, mity vac, or vacu vin? if it is gas, you should be able to pull bubbles at at about 18-22 inches. But if it protein issue, would you be able to pull any bubbles? for a vacu vin there is no gauge, just pump several pumps after it starts clicking until it gets a bit dificult to pull should be enought bring out bubbles.

 

[OilnH2O]

Good idea: the vacuum - but mixed results.

NO visible bubbles when still. With the vacu-vin with 6-8 pumps there are, after a few seconds, a few bubbles -- remember these are really tiny -- begin to rise to the top and sit on the surface. After maybe 15 seconds, there are about 30+ small bubbles sitting on the surface. They continue to rise (and dissipate) as long as the vacuum holds, but they don't really accumulate or create foam. As soon as you release the vacuum, they stop. But, SHAKE it - then the foam!

Chris - the Straight A - made by Brewmaster - is an carbonate, percarbonate, silicate type cleaner. Rinsed thoroughly with water. Before use is when the Na Meta -- Sodium Meta -- is used. Not K-meta -- Sodium is much stronger. I think sanitation is getting accomplished when something is introduced, but then over 18 months there could be a number of things -- and, sanitation is always a possibility. But I don't think I'm cutting corners there, and this is the first time I've been stumped by something that is this... different. AND, I just shook that bottle again - after shaking 20 minutes ago for the vacu-vin test - and it foamed again just like it was last Thursday morning -- and that was 6 days ago! I don't think CO2 is going to do that.

 

[grapeman]

Dave, this is not a normal problem. If the wine tastes OK and doesn'tfoam if you handle it carefully, I would bottle it and drink it out of a decanter. If it has an off taste, I would just throw in the towel and move on. Before doing that though, be sure to get an answer from the kit manufacturer. Send them a bottle that does this. They might shed some light, but might just give you a new kit with their apologies.

You have gone above and beyond the normal detective work with this. Good job on that.

P.S. how is this year's mini batches of wine coming?

 

[OilnH2O]

Thanks, Rich - I'll at least have another empty carboy to use if I "toss in the towel." I'll send George an email and see how to send Mosti a sample - they may be interested and that might be the only way I'll find out what happened. And, I'm sure it is something I've done, or didn't do - I just want to learn where I "erred."

I was able to get 5 !/2 gallons after the first racking from about 93 pounds of grapes. Not bad, all in all. It's topped off and I need to re-do the chem tests to see how its going. SG is 0.998 and started at 1.086. I was thinking of doing a malo second fermentation, but got off on this rabbit trail of bubbles!

Dave