Finer Wine Kit H2S with Tavola Riesling

[RylanJacobs]

All,

I wanted to come here to document my experience with H2S and FWK Tavola Riesling. I followed all the steps as outlined in the instructions. I chose a cool ferment <68F and kept the fermentor under airlock until day 21.

....when I removed the airlock on day 21, the H2S was extraordinary...


Treated the batch with Reduless and two splash racks and was able to eliminate the smell.

Please feel free to share your experience. I suspect maybe some sulfur was in the grape juice? Or perhaps the fermentation should not have been allowed to go on for 21 days. YMMV. I wish Matteo were still on this forum to comment.

 

[winemaker81]

H2S normally occurs because the yeast is stressed, typically by having insufficient nutrient -- some strains produce H2S if they lack sufficient nutrient. It has nothing to do with sulfur in the must, AFAIK.

I've not heard of H2S in a kit, but most kits include EC-1118, which has low nutrient requirements and doesn't produce H2S.

FWK include strains that are more fitting to the individual varietals. Reds typically include RC-212, which is high nutrient and will produce H2S if stressed. My best guess is that the Riesling didn't have sufficient nutrient for the strain used.

I suggest you contact LabelPeelers and let them know about your problem. I'm pinging @Matteo_Lahm and @Matt_Pruszynski

Note -- The link for Matteo is dead -- I copied from a previous message. Typing "@Matt" doesn't display his name in the auto-complete list. I don't if this means he's blocking contact.

 

[Ohio Bob]

If you did the entire ferment in an airlocked carboy, I’m not surprised. Best practice is to ferment in an open bucket, with a loose lid, or towel. Add nutrient at 1/3 sugar depletion. When the SG gets to 1.020-ish, put under airlock, then wait for a few weeks. Did you do a malolactic fermentation too?

 

[winemaker81]

If you did the entire ferment in an airlocked carboy, I’m not surprised. Best practice is to ferment in an open bucket, with a loose lid, or towel. Add nutrient at 1/3 sugar depletion. When the SG gets to 1.020-ish, put under airlock, then wait for a few weeks. Did you do a malolactic fermentation too?

Why would fermenting under airlock produce H2S? I've not heard anything like that before.

 

[RylanJacobs]

If you did the entire ferment in an airlocked carboy, I’m not surprised. Best practice is to ferment in an open bucket, with a loose lid, or towel. Add nutrient at 1/3 sugar depletion. When the SG gets to 1.020-ish, put under airlock, then wait for a few weeks. Did you do a malolactic fermentation too?

No MLF. However, the airlock after inoculation corresponds to the FWK videos they have posted. This is the practice seemingly endorsed by Matteo and the FWK company.

I’m not saying that was the cause of the H2S, but I somehow had stressed yeast despite following all of their steps as advertised.

 

[Ohio Bob]

Why would fermenting under airlock produce H2S? I've not heard anything like that before.

Lack of oxygen.

 

[winemaker81]

Lack of oxygen.

I haven't seen that in any of the papers I've read. All talk about nutrition and high nutrient requirement yeast strains. I'll look some more.

No MLF. However, the airlock after inoculation corresponds to the FWK videos they have posted. This is the practice seemingly endorsed by Matteo and the FWK company.

I’m not saying that was the cause of the H2S, but I somehow had stressed yeast despite following all of their steps as advertised.

I've followed the FWK protocol with numerous wines, and many folks on this forum have as well. This is the first time I've heard of H2S in a kit wine, hence my suspicion that the occurrence is related to the yeast strain and lack of nutrient.

 

[vinny]

Lack of oxygen.

I haven't seen that in any of the papers I've read. All talk about nutrition and high nutrient requirement yeast strains. I'll look some more.

Certainly not saying I know better, but it makes perfect sense to me that if yeast need O2 to reproduce, and you are not introducing it into the must during the initial stages that you would have a lower, less healthy yeast population than possible. A less than thriving population would stress easier with nutrient deficiencies. In my experience C is not always as simple as A+B, things often compound along the way. Wine or not.

I have never experienced H2S, and I am rather surprised to hear of it in a kit. Especially the first one where @RylanJacobs was encouraged by the community to go with a kit to lower the risks on his first attempt. I will say I am glad you experienced it with a kit rather than an expensive grape order. Our initial experiences will always set our mindset. H2S in my experience is rare. I'm pushing 150 gallons without a sign. You can eliminate the risk by choosing yeasts that are less prone, as you mentioned in previous posts, but you can just as easily add nutrient to eliminate the concern. I add it to every must, but did not mention it as you were following kit instructions with the included yeast. I usually change strains and add as a fail safe. Don't let this write too many hard lines in the sand for you. I am a newer wine maker, but you are the first to post of a current issue with H2S in the 20 months I have been on the forum.

I am glad you got it sorted, and you will be way more prepared for what comes your way with grapes or juice when you choose to move on with the experience.

Another reason I am personally adamant about an open primary so I can inspect daily. When fermentation is nearing completion, usually day 7-10, I rack to secondary with airlock when nutrient and other factors are of little concern. O2 is not a threat as long as CO2 is still present in the wine making an open primary much safer than initially comfortable.

 

[Bmd2k1]

For what it's worth - the protocol I've followed since I started making vino kits in Oct2020 has been to ferment under airlock from the start...immediately after yeast pitch. (A 30+ year vino making mentor led me down this path.) To date - I've only had 1 small H2S issue with a red using RC212 where I forgot to add nutrient 48hrs after pitching. I use 30L Speidel's for my fermentation.

As I'm looking to upsize to multiple kits at some point - I'm wondering if the volume of must fermenting has some direct correlation to the amount of 02 needed. I've visited wineries where they are doing open air fermentation (hundreds of gallons) in large stainless containers. (Also if ya visit Makers Mark or some other bourbon makers....their huge fermentation vats are open air.)

As always...YMMV

Cheers!

 

[winemaker81]

the protocol I've followed since I started making vino kits in Oct2020 has been to ferment under airlock from the start

Fermentation works either way, but with an open container the reproduction is faster due to the O2. One benefit of faster reproduction is that yeast is more likely to dominate and stomp out any competitors, by sheer volume. With pasteurized kits, this should not normally be the problem it can be with fruit, but FWK are not pasteurized.

I tend to look at professionals for process, and as has been noted, professionals typically ferment wines in open vats or tanks, excepting specialty wines such as nouveau.

I'm wondering if the volume of must fermenting has some direct correlation to the amount of 02 needed

It makes sense. If X yeast cells needs Y units of O2, it makes sense that 2X yeast will need 2Y O2.

Consider that large must volumes can produce enough CO2 to be deadly in a confined space, so since output scales with volume, I'd expect input to scale similarly.

While my volumes are too small for that, I still keep my space ventilated during and after fermentation. Better safe than sorry. I'd much rather not have "dumbass didn't ventilate his winery" on my tombstone.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

I tend to look at professionals for process, and as has been noted, professionals typically ferment wines in open vats or tanks, excepting specialty wines such as nouveau.

This is true for reds, but for whites I think it's more typical to ferment in closed (but vented) tanks in order to be able to control temperature and preserve aromatics. (Barrel fermenting of white wines is also done of course - in which case you're relying on cellar temperature to keep things from heating up too much).

 

[RylanJacobs]

I am happy to report that this FWK Riesling is now in bottle. Reduless and a couple of splash racks solved the issue of H2S. It is a good riesling that should be even better by the summer.

Overall, I am pleased with the product. However, I really have no desire to do a kit again. I disagreed with the instructions on several steps, and feel that the FWK product line is geared for those with minimal equipment and knowledge. There was also no customer support for the product.

It seems that most on this forum have had good results with FWK, but tend to use the instructions as a soft guide rather than a rule.

 

[ratflinger]

Most of us are experienced makers and following directions is not something we like to do. The FWK support line is here, hundreds, if not thousands of kits have been made and experimented on. Why would you expect LP to provide expert support when WMT is here. LP can't keep up with this level of experience. Everyone's kits are prepped for the lowest common denominator as everyone starts somewhere. If you have the ability to use grapes then good, a lot of us don't.

 

[winemaker81]

I disagreed with the instructions on several steps, and feel that the FWK product line is geared for those with minimal equipment and knowledge.

Kit instructions are targeted at beginners who have no experienced help, to ensure the beginner has a good result on the first try, and every try. It would be foolish of kit wine vendors to do anything else.

That said, FWK instructions are the best I've seen, although even then beginners may have trouble understanding some concepts.

@ratflinger is right, the help you need is on this forum. If something doesn't make sense, ask questions, as folks on this forum have made hundreds of FWK in the last few years.

I started making kits in the mid-90's as I had no access to good grapes or juice, and initially tried to do my own thing. Between the low quality of the kits (with respect to today's kits) and me trying to do my own thing, results were inconsistent. That said, you can do what you want, but you'll get better results if you understand the purpose behind each step, keeping in mind that kits are targeted at beginners who want that wine in the bottle ASAP so they can drink it. For most beginners, the idea of bottling a wine 12+ months after starting it is ludicrous, and waiting an additional year (or 2) before popping a cork is even more so.

 

[joeswine]

If you did the entire ferment in an airlocked carboy, I’m not surprised. Best practice is to ferment in an open bucket, with a loose lid, or towel. Add nutrient at 1/3 sugar depletion. When the SG gets to 1.020-ish, put under airlock, then wait for a few weeks. Did you do a malolactic fermentation too?

 

[RylanJacobs]

Most of us are experienced makers and following directions is not something we like to do. The FWK support line is here, hundreds, if not thousands of kits have been made and experimented on. Why would you expect LP to provide expert support when WMT is here. LP can't keep up with this level of experience. Everyone's kits are prepped for the lowest common denominator as everyone starts somewhere. If you have the ability to use grapes then good, a lot of us don't.

So sorry! I was in no way trying to disparage FWK or other kit wines! I have a totally drinkable (and rather nice) riesling in my cellar as a result!!

I guess my expectations were just a little off. I was hoping for something more technical than what I received. In hindsight, that is a bad expectation.

 

[RylanJacobs]

I wanted to revive this thread just for a moment. My FWK Riesling is now 12 months old. I tried the first bottle last week and it was VERY good. It was comparable to retail riesling from the grocery store. I made it bone-dry, so it is stylistically very different from most American riesling. It is more on par with German kabinett, although likely even drier.

This wine kit was really a great learning experience. The product is very good. It just took a year for the wine to come into its own.

 

[vinny]

I am glad it worked out and that you are happy with the final product. I just bottled a bourbon oaked chardonnay from last year. It spent a year on the lees and it is the best white I have made. I have gone through half of the bottles in a couple of months, and I have barely dented a couple of other whites that were bottled long ago. Wine making skill or kit quality, I don't know. I'll assume some responsibility is mine.

I mention it only because I wasn't planning to make anymore white wines, but I have my eyes on the look for something interesting to try as I am really enjoying this one.

I am not up to date, have you tried any other wines or were you waiting to see if you liked this one first? I think over time we all get comfortable with our own ways. I skip Kmeta and sorbate packs, substitute yeasts, and add nutrient at a minimum and decide on any other tweaks from there. The kit instructions are in the manufacturers best interest. They want you to be successful, and the aim is to get the first timer to make a decent wine so they will buy another kit. Certainly room for changes as you get comfortable.

I am interested to hear what you do next.

 

[RylanJacobs]

I am glad it worked out and that you are happy with the final product. I just bottled a bourbon oaked chardonnay from last year. It spent a year on the lees and it is the best white I have made. I have gone through half of the bottles in a couple of months, and I have barely dented a couple of other whites that were bottled long ago. Wine making skill or kit quality, I don't know. I'll assume some responsibility is mine.

I mention it only because I wasn't planning to make anymore white wines, but I have my eyes on the look for something interesting to try as I am really enjoying this one.

I am not up to date, have you tried any other wines or were you waiting to see if you liked this one first? I think over time we all get comfortable with our own ways. I skip Kmeta and sorbate packs, substitute yeasts, and add nutrient at a minimum and decide on any other tweaks from there. The kit instructions are in the manufacturers best interest. They want you to be successful, and the aim is to get the first timer to make a decent wine so they will buy another kit. Certainly room for changes as you get comfortable.

I am interested to hear what you do next.

Hey Vinny,

The riesling is the first wine I've made that's in the drinking window. I started a chardonnay last Fall that still needs some time. I have been completely enamored with white wines. That is all I plan to make for now. I have my eye on some viognier and chenin blanc this coming Fall.

My chardonnay batch is from a juice bucket. The numbers are good and so far everything has gone well. It's about 7 months old right now and is.....just okay. It doesn't taste bad, but it reminds me of the riesling around this same time. I think young wines are really just not that exciting.

Fortunately, I had a great experience recently with the riesling so I am optimistic the chard will be in a similar place around xmas.

I'd be curious to know more about your bourbon oak chardonnay! Did you ferment in barrel? MLF? I've discovered that my favorite retail chardonnay is cool-climate and barrel fermented. There's just something about the creaminess that only barrel fermentations can create. My chardonnay is in carboy. I will likely add some oak at some point, but it does not have the same texture of barrel fermented lots.

 

[winemaker81]

My chardonnay is in carboy. I will likely add some oak at some point, but it does not have the same texture of barrel fermented lots.

In reds, fermentation oak helps preserve color. In any wine, the fermentation oak is called "sacrificial" oak, as post-fermentation some tannin precipitates. With fermentation oak present, the oak tannin drops instead of grape tannin.

There are numerous types of tannin which have different qualities. Grape tannin is preferred over oak tannin.

Aging oak is a completely different area, which may dramatically change aroma and flavor. A few years ago my son and I conducted an experiment with different types of oak, and the results may be interesting to you. It's a longer read than many of my posts, but may provide useful information.