Headspace in carboy

[teegasus]

Hi!
Today I degassed and added stabilizers to my first ever batch of wine!

I’m curious if this is too much headspace in the carboy, or if you would recommend topping it of more with a similar wine all the way to the neck? See picture!

 

[gsf77]

Personally I would fill it up into the bottom of the neck. The only reason I do this is because I’ve always “read” you’re suppose to do it and I always have. For me since it worked the first time I kept doing it. I can’t say if you have too much headspace or not.

 

[Scooter68]

Yes, That is TOO much headspace. Unless an active ferment is occurring that carboy should be filled to somewhere in the neck of the container. Normally I go for about 3/4 to 1 inch from the bottom of my bung.

Keep in mind that both the amount of surface area and volume matter in reducing oxidation. With greater surface area more of your wine can oxidize at a much greater rate becausse more of it is exposed to oxygen at one time.

In your carboy you have around 50 times more surface area in your carboy now than if the level was somewhere up into the neck of the container. (Neck surface area at 1.5" Diameter = 1.767 sq In compared to Carboy inside diameter 11" = 95 sq in)
The difference in volume is a bit less at approx 64 cu in vs 9.6 cu in or roughly 6.5 times more volume.
So oxidation can occur much faster in your current condition than in that same carboy if filled as I suggested.

I'm guesstimating the measurements but the concepts don't change. A new wine will be degassing for several days, weeks or even months so their is CO2 being released into that headspace but how long will it degas and how much CO2 will be released can vary widely. So at first for a few weeks oxidation might not be a real issue, but; unless you are measuring the CO2 levels in that headspace, you aren't going to know when it stop completely.

Many of us rack twice in the first 4-6 weeks - First as fermentation slows and the SG is around 1.010-1.020 and then again after the finer lees have seriously settled out and we want to get the wine off the lees. After that Second racking it would be unwise to assume there is still a lot of CO2 coming out of the wine. You are taking a chance with your entire wine batch.

 

[teegasus]

That’s what I thought. Thank you guys so much for the swift and great answer I will top it up right away!
Thanks!

 

[VinesnBines]

It is too much headspace - a veteran winemaker says not more than one inch below the bung. Do use a similar or complementary wine - never water or juice.

 

[gsf77]

It is too much headspace - a veteran winemaker says not more than one inch below the bung. Do use a similar or complementary wine - never water or juice.

Why not juice? Restarts fermentation?

 

[VinesnBines]

It could restart fermentation. You might want to back-sweeten with juice but you would need to add sorbate and be sure it is good and stable.

 

[cmason1957]

I am going to offer another opinion, sort of. To me the is that to much headspace depends on how long you are going to leave it like that. If you are going to follow the schedule provided by kit instructions and bottle it in a week or two (maybe even three or four), then no that isn't to much headspace. If however you plan to bulk age it longer than the instructions say to (the path I and most of us suggest you should take), then yes that is to much headspace and you should top it up until the wine is up into the neck or nearly there.

(Ask 10 winemakers, get 11 opinions)

 

[VinesnBines]

(Ask 10 winemakers, get 11 opinions)

That few? I would think more like "Ask 10 winemakers and get 25 opinions".

 

[Johnd]

I am going to offer another opinion, sort of. To me the is that to much headspace depends on how long you are going to leave it like that. If you are going to follow the schedule provided by kit instructions and bottle it in a week or two (maybe even three or four), then no that isn't to much headspace. If however you plan to bulk age it longer than the instructions say to (the path I and most of us suggest you should take), then yes that is to much headspace and you should top it up until the wine is up into the neck or nearly there.

(Ask 10 winemakers, get 11 opinions)

Craig makes a good point, to which I'll add: unless your wine is totally free of CO2, it'll be giving some off for several weeks or more, which offers a slight measure of protection.

 

[Chinook]

Hi!
Today I degassed and added stabilizers to my first ever batch of wine!

I’m curious if this is too much headspace in the carboy, or if you would recommend topping it of more with a similar wine all the way to the neck? See picture!

I would top it up with water became it is still pre-stabilization and still is fermenting or fermentable, The low level means to me it could have used more water in the primary., so just add it now.
I wouldn't change the taste of the kit with another wine. A six gallon kit should be a six gallon kit.
If people want a more concentrated flavor or result then I guess they would have to use some kind of nitrogen top up. For myself that is not important.

Call me cautious...
In the picture with the Six gallon carboy, the ullage is just above the orange ring. I always adjust the water level in the primary just enough extra for "overflow" bottles (various sizes) for leftover lees and liquid, so I never have any problem topping up even after a second racking.

 

[sour_grapes]

I would top it up with water became it is still pre-stabilization and still is fermenting or fermentable primary., so just add it now.
I wouldn't change the taste of the kit with another wine. A six gallon kit should be a six gallon kit.

There are a couple of problems IMHO with this line of thinking. First of all, you are assuming that a nominal 6 gal carboy is, in fact, 6 gallons. Mine are about 6.25 gallons.

Second, there is a legitimate loss of volume due to, for example, racking off lees.

Ergo, I would advocate for topping off with a similar wine.

 

[Chinook]

There are a couple of problems IMHO with this line of thinking. First of all, you are assuming that a nominal 6 gal carboy is, in fact, 6 gallons. Mine are about 6.25 gallons.

Second, there is a legitimate loss of volume due to, for example, racking off lees.

Ergo, I would advocate for topping off with a similar wine.

Well each one to their own taste.
..
However, , My carboy is 6 gallons as per the measuring tools I have, The full carboy of water when I pour it into one any of my primaries matches approximately the 6 gallon mark on them. And then I make a definite mark.
..
Also I checked all my carboys measuring litre by litre with a one litre measuring cup.
Considering that I don't really have perfect measuring tools , it is approximate but the plus or minus is not off by 1/4 of a gallon. That is a huge difference, almost a litre. Very non-standard.
..
Which brings a good point of measurement. I wonder what do you and other people use as standards of measurement. I've bought all kinds of measuring cups eg one litre.

Very seldom are any of them standardized. It is very annoying, I can't trust any of them really when I buy them. I measure and measure one against the other and take the best average. I wish I could find something that I know absolutely is one exact litre then I can standardize everything else. Absolute! Absolute!
..
Anyway I don't see the problem of making 6.25 gallons of wine from a six gallon kit. It doesn't seem significant. It is possible that I don't know what I'm missing if I have gone over six gallons by maybe 250 ml, 500 ml or whatever , but I've never been disappointed with any of my wines. I prefer this method than the possibilty of ruining my wines with oxygen or using foreign to ups. or If it is considered significant to some people then maybe the best thing is something like a nitrogen top up.


Yes, I am aware that lees cost volume which is why I make sure there is enough water in the primary to result in six gallons + of resulting wine after the primary lees have been discarded. . I keep an overflow bottle for the extra - I make six gallons plus, (usually around 250 ml depending on the varietal) enough for a top up for the second racking.

I regard a six gallon kit as meant to produce 6 gallons of wine, not wine + lees.
The instructions that come with kits are guidelines, they don't really cover all the specifics and they don't address some of the obvious problems such as ullage. If someone follows them precisely they are left in the lurch. The manufacturers simplify the instructions because they don't wnat to get in the weeds and/0r take on some kind of legal liability. People have to work out their own solutions.
...
Topping up with another wine (store bought or self made) means to make an accurate ABV prediction you have to know the ABV and volume of the added wine. And then make a calculation.

I do want to know the taste of the wine I'm making. Making a blend doesn't give me a standard to determine future batches. And changing the ABV with another wine also throws out another benchmark for the future.

And also as a wine-maker, I just never will buy wine, I feel then just what's the point? At least buying wine for home purposes. . There are always spectacular wines to try and there is traveling in wine country , going to wineries etc.

 

[Rice_Guy]

yup, or run it as a five gallon carboy and then top off with extra water after racking. (Talking with folks after club contest this is one of the tricks some do to win best of class.)

Wine is hedonic, which basically means the customer and especially the repeat customer is correct. From a preservation point being 12% alcohol or being 11% alcohol will not matter. From a shelf life point topping up is important and it is possible that two years out Chinook’s wine that was diluted will have less off flavor/ taste similar to the one that was topped up with a similar wine.

If people want a more concentrated flavor or result then I guess they would have to use some kind of nitrogen top up. For myself that is not important. . . .Call me cautious...

edit; at the lab bench I have found that measuring cups are consistent, and my preference is stainless steel and then wipe the top flat. HOWEVER if I want accuracy I weigh a formula. For the retail consumer well, it doesn’t matter! You all have to realize there is some variation in what went in the package, (most foods are overpacked just to make sure they are legal)/ how much damage the evaporator produced/ sugar free dry matter of this years crop/ etc

 

[heatherd]

Top up with a similar wine to around 1/2" of the airlock, since you stated that you've stabilized your wine.

 

[MHSKIBUM]

I rack a couple inches below the bung long-term in a 5-gallon carboy and bottle whatever is surplus. Most experienced winemakers top up a 6-gallon carboy with a similar wine but I usually don't have a bottle that I want to part with. I know it's the same thing but I can't bear the idea of using a more mature bottle (closer to drinking) for this.

 

[Chinook]

t Chinook’s wine that was diluted will have less off flavor/ taste similar to the one that was topped up with a similar wine.

I don't believe I am diluting the wine kit nor the taste. I think I am making it to standard, the the standard the kit was designed for which is 30 bottles of finished wine with an ABV above 13 percent as per what is stated on the WinExpert website for example Diablo Rojo. . The kits were meant to reach the natural fermentation state as if one simply fermented the grape. .For that there is probably a range plus or minus perhaps 1.5 litres on the amount of water that can be used.
I am never short on the ullage. I control the batch from the beginning.
Except for the very first time. That's when i learned my lesson.
...
If less water is used then that is concentrating the flavor. Some people like this idea and pursue this goal but that is tweaking the kit. .

 

[Chinook]

edit; at the lab bench I have found that measuring cups are consistent, and my preference is stainless steel and then wipe the top flat.

Stainless steel measuring cups? Sounds good. All mine are plastic , eg one litre or 560 ml etc - buying from the dollar store or department store , it's all the same stuff and not consistent , not even the name brands and not even to themselves. I just buy a lot and settle on the one for my standard that is most consistent with the others. Maybe I'll try home depot.
When a formula calls for variations of measuring cups (I use Betty Crocker measuring cups) of solids I run a knife across the top to make it level using that as my standard.

 

[bstnh1]

I would top it up with water became it is still pre-stabilization and still is fermenting or fermentable, The low level means to me it could have used more water in the primary., so just add it now.
I wouldn't change the taste of the kit with another wine. A six gallon kit should be a six gallon kit.
If people want a more concentrated flavor or result then I guess they would have to use some kind of nitrogen top up. For myself that is not important.

Call me cautious...
In the picture with the Six gallon carboy, the ullage is just above the orange ring. I always adjust the water level in the primary just enough extra for "overflow" bottles (various sizes) for leftover lees and liquid, so I never have any problem topping up even after a second racking.

View attachment 70919

You lose volume due to the gross lees even if you start off with a full 6 gallons. If you start with more than 6 gallons, you're diluting the finished product. By the way, wine kit instructions refer to the kit making 6 gallons because labeling requirements require them to state the volume when kit is first started. The instructions will also tell you you need 28 - 30 bottle to bottle the finished product. If you start with a full 6 gallons, you'll wind up with about 28 bottles. If the kit has an F-pack, you'll wind up with a bit more. See comments from Winexpert in link below.


http://www.creativeconnoisseur.com/resources/Instruction-change.pdf

 

[Johnd]

Well each one to their own taste.
..
However, , My carboy is 6 gallons as per the measuring tools I have, The full carboy of water when I pour it into one any of my primaries matches approximately the 6 gallon mark on them. And then I make a definite mark.
..
Also I checked all my carboys measuring litre by litre with a one litre measuring cup.
Considering that I don't really have perfect measuring tools , it is approximate but the plus or minus is not off by 1/4 of a gallon. That is a huge difference, almost a litre. Very non-standard.
..
Which brings a good point of measurement. I wonder what do you and other people use as standards of measurement. I've bought all kinds of measuring cups eg one litre.

Very seldom are any of them standardized. It is very annoying, I can't trust any of them really when I buy them. I measure and measure one against the other and take the best average. I wish I could find something that I know absolutely is one exact litre then I can standardize everything else. Absolute! Absolute!
..
Anyway I don't see the problem of making 6.25 gallons of wine from a six gallon kit. It doesn't seem significant. It is possible that I don't know what I'm missing if I have gone over six gallons by maybe 250 ml, 500 ml or whatever , but I've never been disappointed with any of my wines. I prefer this method than the possibilty of ruining my wines with oxygen or using foreign to ups. or If it is considered significant to some people then maybe the best thing is something like a nitrogen top up.


Yes, I am aware that lees cost volume which is why I make sure there is enough water in the primary to result in six gallons + of resulting wine after the primary lees have been discarded. . I keep an overflow bottle for the extra - I make six gallons plus, (usually around 250 ml depending on the varietal) enough for a top up for the second racking.

I regard a six gallon kit as meant to produce 6 gallons of wine, not wine + lees.
The instructions that come with kits are guidelines, they don't really cover all the specifics and they don't address some of the obvious problems such as ullage. If someone follows them precisely they are left in the lurch. The manufacturers simplify the instructions because they don't wnat to get in the weeds and/0r take on some kind of legal liability. People have to work out their own solutions.
...
Topping up with another wine (store bought or self made) means to make an accurate ABV prediction you have to know the ABV and volume of the added wine. And then make a calculation.

I do want to know the taste of the wine I'm making. Making a blend doesn't give me a standard to determine future batches. And changing the ABV with another wine also throws out another benchmark for the future.

And also as a wine-maker, I just never will buy wine, I feel then just what's the point? At least buying wine for home purposes. . There are always spectacular wines to try and there is traveling in wine country , going to wineries etc.

Wow, so many volumatic problems......and all the multiple checks, if I checked the volume of my carboys, one by one, one liter ar a time, the corona virus would have passed before I was done. Instead, why not take advantage of the wonders of the metric system? All you really need is a good weight scale to determine volume, right???? 23 liters of water weighs what? Rightttttttt !!! So you could weigh any vessel, add 23 KG of 4°C water to it, and that’ll be your 23L mark.

You’ll soon find, using your newfound volume tool, as @sour_grapes alluded, many quality carboys hold varying amounts of liquid, most are slightly over 6 gallons / 23L when topped up properly. When I was making kits, and I made hundreds of kits, I made 6 gallons of must, period, as the manufacturer directs. It normally resulted in the need to top up down the line, which was always done with wine, and sometimes demanded several bottles. This is a “Best Ptactice” we’ve been sharing here for many years. No one is trying to convince you to change, you may use water if you like.