Headspace in carboy

[balatonwine]

topping it of more with a similar wine

Another option, as you don't have that much space and to avoid "blending with similar wine", is to go get some glass marbles, sanitize them, then put them in to the container till you get a smaller headspace.

 

[balatonwine]

(Ask 10 winemakers, get 11 opinions)

Are you Hungarian? Because there is an often quoted similar sardonic statement here in Hungary: Put two Hungarians in a room, and you will still have three opinions. (And, yes, it seems to be true.)

 

[sour_grapes]

Well each one to their own taste.

Agreed. I don't actually have much disagreement with what you wrote. Watering it down a bit isn't going to ruin anything. Just not what I want to do, personally.

Very seldom are any of them standardized. It is very annoying, I can't trust any of them really when I buy them. I measure and measure one against the other and take the best average. I wish I could find something that I know absolutely is one exact litre then I can standardize everything else. Absolute! Absolute!

I realize @Johnd made this point already, but I will suggest it on a liter basis: find a 1-liter container, and, using a widely available kitchen scale, add 1 kg of water to it. That will be as close to absolute as you require.

 

[mainshipfred]

Wow, so many volumatic problems......and all the multiple checks, if I checked the volume of my carboys, one by one, one liter ar a time, the corona virus would have passed before I was done. Instead, why not take advantage of the wonders of the metric system? All you really need is a good weight scale to determine volume, right???? 23 liters of water weighs what? Rightttttttt !!! So you could weigh any vessel, add 23 KG of 4°C water to it, and that’ll be your 23L mark.

You’ll soon find, using your newfound volume tool, as @sour_grapes alluded, many quality carboys hold varying amounts of liquid, most are slightly over 6 gallons / 23L when topped up properly. When I was making kits, and I made hundreds of kits, I made 6 gallons of must, period, as the manufacturer directs. It normally resulted in the need to top up down the line, which was always done with wine, and sometimes demanded several bottles. This is a “Best Ptactice” we’ve been sharing here for many years. No one is trying to convince you to change, you may use water if you like.

Wow, weighing water to determine the capacity of a carboy. Going to have to add that to the list of "biggest ah ha moments". I do have a one gallon carboy that I added graduation marks to by using a graduated cylinder. It helps a lot with blending or knowing what size vessel to put the remaining wine in after filling a carboy.

 

[VinesnBines]

I do have a one gallon carboy that I added graduation marks to by using a graduated cylinder. It helps a lot with blending or knowing what size vessel to put the remaining wine in after filling a carboy.

Never thought of that! I'm usually able to guess but that is a great idea.

 

[Old Corker]

Whoa. My head is spinning...
I will add 1500ml of water to the must when I am tweaking a kit to a 5 gal. batch but I have never added more water to a 6 gal. kit. I top up with similar wine (usually from another batch) because I think it will change the taste and the ABV less than using water.
The ah ha moment I am getting from this thread has more to do with degassing. I have gotten into the habit of degassing when I rack off the lees and will start bulk aging. Mostly because I have the vacuum pump set up and running and its just easy to do. I'm now thinking I'll just leave it to degas more naturally and use the CO2 for protection for as long as its there. Thoughts?

 

[Chinook]

You lose volume due to the gross lees even if you start off with a full 6 gallons. If you start with more than 6 gallons, you're diluting the finished product. By the way, wine kit instructions refer to the kit making 6 gallons because labeling requirements require them to state the volume when kit is first started.

No, you are not. I disagree, There is nothing diluted. The kit was intended to make 30 bottles and the proof is that 30 bottles make the target ABV. If you make less than 30 bottles you are concentrating the product and tweaking the kit.
I can understand, Its; the human desire to have more more more of whatever.. Like children that only want to eat the icing on the cake. But "more" is not the standard.

The carboys are designed to hold 30 bottles of of a purebred finished wine., not some mongrel blend. If the kits were designed to produced 28 bottles then they would have have designed a whole new line of 21,212 ml carboys.

The instructions to start with Six gallons of water in the primaryare just a guideline, not canon and inadequate simplified instructions,

 

[Chinook]

Wow, so many volumatic problems......and all the multiple checks, if I checked the volume of my carboys, one by one, one liter ar a time, the corona virus would have passed before I was done. Instead, why not take advantage of the wonders of the metric system? All you really need is a good weight scale to determine volume, right???? 23 liters of water weighs what? Rightttttttt !!! So you could weigh any vessel, add 23 KG of 4°C water to it, and that’ll be your 23L mark.

You’ll soon find, using your newfound volume tool, as @sour_grapes alluded, many quality carboys hold varying amounts of liquid, most are slightly over 6 gallons / 23L when topped up properly. When I was making kits, and I made hundreds of kits, I made 6 gallons of must, period, as the manufacturer directs. It normally resulted in the need to top up down the line, which was always done with wine, and sometimes demanded several bottles. This is a “Best Ptactice” we’ve been sharing here for many years. No one is trying to convince you to change, you may use water if you like.

Weighing? No that is even more problematic. Different substances have different weights per volume and the problem of standardization still exists. How wold I trust the weight scale to be accurate?. I'd have to buy multiple weight scales to cross check. I don't need another headache. No I just want accurate volume measurements I do everything by volume.

I need the standard one litre measuring cup for many other things not specifically to measure a six gallon carboy. That was just a one off. I use the litre measuring cup o a daily basis for many other things.
..
No I don't agree it is "best practices" to not use enough water and mongrelize your wine with other top ups. That is just a common misunderstanding of the kit winemaking process.

 

[Chinook]

Agreed. I don't actually have much disagreement with what you wrote. Watering it down a bit isn't going to ruin anything. Just not what I want to do, personally.



I realize @Johnd made this point already, but I will suggest it on a liter basis: find a 1-liter container, and, using a widely available kitchen scale, add 1 kg of water to it. That will be as close to absolute as you require.

I don't agree I've watered anything down. I make the kits according to the specifications , volume and ABV, and the specifications are to match the natural fermentation of the actual grape fermentation.
Edit:

You know, I generally don't disagree with most of what you wrote. Over-concentrating the wine beyond the target intent of the making of the kit isn't going to ruin anything. Just not what I want to do, personally.​

....
250 ml lees of six gallons is .011 of the total volume. And for that people are worried about "watering down" and giving themselves endless headaches with headspace. It's trivial. The actual variance in use of water with the kit is most likely much greater than 250 ml in order to achieve the target specs of the kit, probably more like 750 ml..

.......
Well OK that's a good idea about weight . However, my experience with kitchen scales is that they are not very accurate or standardized. And not well marked for small differences. And the marks on the measuring cups sometimes seems stamped helter skelter.
Mabe you have specific brands you can recommend.
...
Who can you trust these days? Maybe I will shop at MIT.

 

[cmason1957]

Another option, as you don't have that much space and to avoid "blending with similar wine", is to go get some glass marbles, sanitize them, then put them in to the container till you get a smaller headspace.

Not Hungarian, mostly German and Norwegian, with some Russian and English thrown in somewhere.

 

[vacuumpumpman]

Topping off with a similar wine is best - There is also a device you can put on the carboy if you have some headspace and a vacuum pump and it will help remove the CO2
https://www.allinonewinepump.com/product/headspace-eliminator/

 

[winemaker81]

Most of my carboys hold 5.25 US gallons.

But I don't worry about that -- I marked all my primaries on the outside with permanent markers, adding 1 gallon at a time. Add a gallon, mark the level, add another gallon ...

For kits, I put the juice/concentrate in the fermenter and fill (stirring) until it hits just below 6 gallons, so exactly how much the carboy holds is not very important. Post-fermentation, kits go in a 5 gallon carboy with the excess in smaller bottles, so I have no headspace problem. Other wines I plan for aging in 5 gallon increments, with some left over for topup.

This mostly works, but some times things don't quite work out. Which is why I have a collection of bottles from 200 ml on up.

 

[Johnd]

Weighing? No that is even more problematic. Different substances have different weights per volume and the problem of standardization still exists. How wold I trust the weight scale to be accurate?. I'd have to buy multiple weight scales to cross check. I don't need another headache. No I just want accurate volume measurements I do everything by volume.

I need the standard one litre measuring cup for many other things not specifically to measure a six gallon carboy. That was just a one off. I use the litre measuring cup o a daily basis for many other things.
..
No I don't agree it is "best practices" to not use enough water and mongrelize your wine with other top ups. That is just a common misunderstanding of the kit winemaking process.

It’s quite easy to obtain an accurate scale if one wants to. 1 liter of water weighs one KG. Weigh the carboy, then add 23 KG to that weight. Fill the carboy with water to the weight you calculated, and that fill level will be 23 L.

As far as topping with like wine not being a best practice, you can disagree if you like, but that won’t change it. No kit instructions I’ve ever seen tell you to add water beyond the 23L level to account for loss, and I’ve made hundreds of kits. You may do whatever you like, it doesn't cause me any grief as I sip a glass of non-watered down wine, but don’t insinuate that I don’t understand the kit making process.

 

[Scooter68]

Re: Carboy and container volumes. It pays to accurately check the volumes of things. When get to later rackings where you are losing maybe an ounce or two it matters if you are going from a 6 gal. 12 oz carboy to a 6 gal. 2oz carboy. potentially you are going to lose wine
or have to find another container for 8 oz of wine.

It's worth the time to mark a 1 gallon container at the actual 1 gallon level. Then fill each empty carboy to a standard "full" mark. Then use good measuring cup to measure what it what extra it takes to reach your "full" mark. I've got all but one or two of mine labeled with their measured volumes. AND as suggested fine a good collection of glass containers for those extra volumes of wine.

By the way some of the kombucha 16oz bottles have same thread as my one gallon carboys. If you visit your local recycling center take along a screw cap that fits your 1 gallon carboys and test that on some candidate bottles. You can use a bung/stopper but having a screw cap is so much nicer especially if you need to store something in the fridge for a while.

 

[mainshipfred]

I've always wanted to put a mark on my carboys, just never got around to it and most of my 6, 6.5 and 7s are now full. Have around 10 empty 5s though and seriously considering marking those. Since I don't have a scale accurate enough to weigh 5 gallons worth of water I may (since I have a one gallon accurately marked using graduated cylinders) measure 5 gallons in a carboy mark it then pump the water into the next carboy and so on. I know I may lose a little each time but don't think it will matter much. Just curious what the differences will be.

 

[jay2020]

Topping off with a similar wine is best - There is also a device you can put on the carboy if you have some headspace and a vacuum pump and it will help remove the CO2
https://www.allinonewinepump.com/product/headspace-eliminator/

Will this work with 1-gallon carboys if they are only half full?

 

[Chinook]

It’s quite easy to obtain an accurate scale if one wants to. 1 liter of water weighs one KG. Weigh the carboy, then add 23 KG to that weight. Fill the carboy with water to the weight you calculated, and that fill level will be 23 L.

As far as topping with like wine not being a best practice, you can disagree if you like, but that won’t change it. No kit instructions I’ve ever seen tell you to add water beyond the 23L level to account for loss, and I’ve made hundreds of kits. You may do whatever you like, it doesn't cause me any grief as I sip a glass of non-watered down wine, but don’t insinuate that I don’t understand the kit making process.

Well if it is "easy" to get an accurate scale then can you explain where, how and which brand, because all I've seen are not accurate.
Anyway, it's moot. As I already explained that was only one off. I am looking for an accurate one litre measuring cup for use on a daily basis.
...
Well you can have the opinion that it is "best practice" to not put enough water in the primary to fulfill the intention of the kit but that doesn't make it so. That won't change it.
Please don't insinuate that I don't know what "best practices" are in winemakeing. It's a matter of individual opinion.
..
The so called instructions that come with the kits are generic and meaningless and often just plain wrong, untrustworthy.. And I also have made hundreds of kits. A person has to apply common sense to them..
The manufacturer says the kits make or can make 30 bottles of finished wine and that won't happen if you short the water in the primary. So I think the introductions were probaly written in China or some other place..
..
You are not sipping "non watered down wine" in your hypothetical example , you are sipping concentrated wine,. If that's what you want that is your prerogative.
I'll bet I could make a kit the way I make it and the one the way you make it and you wouldn't tell the difference. The difference in water addition to account for lees is so minor it is meaningless.
I achieve the correct target volume and the correct target ABV as outlined by the manufacturer's specifications for the kits.

 

[Chinook]

This mostly works, but some times things don't quite work out. Which is why I have a collection of bottles from 200 ml on up.

I have a collection of overflow bottles from 50 ml up, 100 ml and 250 ml being the most accurate as they are from pharmaceutical sources. Soda pop bottles are very consistent in their measurement for volume. That is one good thing about them You know it's always the same volume whatever it is.

I've measured and cross-checked the volume of everything I use making appropraite markings. . It's all accurate relative to the standard of the measuring tools I am using. even if they are not accurate in the absolute sense.

 

[Swedeman]

The so called instructions that come with the kits are generic and meaningless and often just plain wrong, untrustworthy.. And I also have made hundreds of kits. A person has to apply common sense to them..
The manufacturer says the kits make or can make 30 bottles of finished wine and that won't happen if you short the water in the primary. So I think the introductions were probaly written in China or some other place..

What a nasty comment!

 

[Johnd]

What a nasty comment!

Agreed!! I won’t interact with this individual any longer, I just hit the ignore option and moved on.