Headspace in carboy

[Chinook]

What a nasty comment!

?? How in the world is that nasty?
I challenged and still do challenge the quality of the instructions, It is a perfectly logical and rational thing to do. Furthermore it is common knowledge that work is outsourced by corporations to foreign countries and that often accounts for a lack of quality. This kind of thing is more common than sand.
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And I am certain that accounts for the lack of quality in the printed instructions of most of the kits. They are woefully inadequate as if produced by someone without experience, someone trying to "imagine the sound".
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Being able to critically challenge ideas , to think critically is a necessary component of intellectual function. And not being able to challenge this fundamental concept is probably the source of the general disagreement here about ullage..
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I repeat : "The so called instructions that come with the kits are generic and meaningless and often just plain wrong, untrustworthy. "
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That is my opinion based on my observations based on logical function, not emotional function..
By all means , if I say something you don't like feel free not to engage
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However your accusation or ad hominem that my negative conclusion is meant to be abusive to someone is baseless.
Adn this does not win the argument about the question of ullage.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Well yes there is a standard weight kilogram in a vault at the bureau of standards, but for most of us error of 0.0001% does not matter. Reference kilos are made based on this one and liquid liter of water is defined against this standard weight.

and the problem of standardization still exists. How wold I trust the weight scale to be accurate?. I'd have to buy multiple weight scales to cross check. ,, I need the standard one litre measuring cup for many other things not specifically to measure a six gallon carboy. That was just a one off. I use the litre measuring cup o a daily basis for many other things.

If I go to the lab bench I have a set of tools to measure against mass and pure water against this mass and the hygrometer is measuring density against pure water with defined salt. You could upgrade to a $2000 scale from the lab catalogue (Mettler is excellent quality which lasts if we give to the plant workers) or a bureau of standards referenced scale from the factory catalogue and have the weighing technician come in every year to calibrate them.
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digital scales are wonderful, especially the expensive ones. ,,,, life has gotten a lot easier without the balance and counter weights ,,,, for most of us in the drinking world error of 0.01% does not matter ,,,, or 1.01%
and in the factory world decades ago I had a boss point out if the unit of measure going into a cooker is a fifty pound frozen box of strawberry and a thousand pound tote, use that unit, not your idealized lab bench recipe with a third of a box of strawberries, ,,,,, the customer at the grocery store won’t be able to taste the difference.

All in all when it does matter we all measure volume and density against a reference weight, so for me I write tare weight on pails and carboys and for a notebook weigh the must pail ,,,,it’s just easier. ,,,,, and many of us have a scale which is good enough to weigh the wife to the accuracy of the doctors office annual physical so we could weigh full carboys

 

[VinesnBines]

Agreed!! I won’t interact with this individual any longer, I just hit the ignore option and moved on.

Best idea; I hit ignore for that one on Friday.

 

[mainshipfred]

Agreed!! I won’t interact with this individual any longer, I just hit the ignore option and moved on.

Good for you John, I wanted to respond to his self righteous opinions but decided to stay out of it.

 

[richinsd]

Does anyone just add gas (e.g., argon or CO2) to their carboys?

 

[mainshipfred]

I use argon but only for a short term solution like if racking or filtering and not bottling immediately. Sometimes for not full containers of topping up wine.

 

[sour_grapes]

Does anyone just add gas (e.g., argon or CO2) to their carboys?

Yes, a number of people do that. Just beware that you need to be careful when you add the inert gas to the carboy, so as to displace the air carefully. Low flow rates and laminar flow are recommended. (FYI: there is no such thing as a "blanket of a heavier gas.")

 

[my wine]

I use CO2 to flush and fill head space and, as sour grapes said, I'm carefull when adding it.

 

[winemaker81]

And I am certain that accounts for the lack of quality in the printed instructions of most of the kits. They are woefully inadequate as if produced by someone without experience, someone trying to "imagine the sound".

The instructions are obviously written by someone extremely experienced. The instructions are very precise, and if followed exactly, produce a positive result. These instructions have been used by 10s of thousands of newbies to successfully produce wine, newbies who have no experienced wine makers to guide them.

These instructions are not optimal -- to experienced wine makers. But the instructions are not designed for us -- they are designed for newbies who have no one to help them, and as I mentioned, 10s of thousands of satisfied customers can attest the instructions are correct.

Regarding dilution, a 23 liter kit is designed to be diluted to exactly 23 liters. This is the starting volume, not the ending volume. Each successive racking reduces volume, so the Winexpert statement that 28-30 bottles is required is accurate, although "28 bottle" is also accurate, as that is typically the result after several rackings.

Topping with water alters the balance of the the acid and other constituents. The folks on this forum are aghast at topping with water as it dilutes, e.g., waters down the wine. The kit is balanced for an initial volume of 23 liters -- altering that balance alters the outcome. A lot of folks use less initial water volume to increase the flavor and body, but that also increases the acid and throws off the balance. The kits I am familiar with are designed to be diluted to exactly 23 liters.

In the Winexpert instructions I'm reading at this moment, instruction 3.7 reads: Topping up the carboy during the clearing process is not required. If choosing to top-up, use a similar style of wine. Water is not recommended.

That said, the only wines I truly care about are mine and my son's, as I'll be drinking them. I don't care what anyone else does.

 

[Johnd]

Good for you John, I wanted to respond to his self righteous opinions but decided to stay out of it.

I couldn’t care less how he makes his wine, he’s the winemaker and its his prerogative to add water to his wine. I respect that right. The only reason I chose to challenge his process is to prevent our new winemaker members from thinking that this practice of topping up with water is the way to go. There’s just no sense in further diluting a product that already struggles for the body, flavor, and aroma of wine from grapes. Mission accomplished as far as I’m concerned.

 

[Scooter68]

At times I have used water to top up but only when I had nothing else AND I felt comfortable with not losing flavor or lowering the ABV to much but.... Nowdays try to start a batch with enough volume overage that I know I should plenty of extra wine for topping off.
Even if you concentrate your initial volume of wine enough to permit using water to top off. There is no way of knowing precisely how much water you are going to be adding. The amount of lees can vary significantly, Even if you do "allow" for adding water - Good luck keeping track of how much you have diluted your wine and lowered the ABV. Sure you can 'calculate it' but I've chosen to avoid that in the future, I've got better thing to do with my time.

 

[Aleatoric]

I've always added more water to the initial fermenter to compensate for lees loss, and result in a very full carboy. Of late I'm using the kits from Canada that require one to add their own sugar, and I add a bit more than recommended. It doesn't take much.

Of note (and relevant to this conversation) sometimes I overshoot, and I put the excess in a smaller container (those Kirkland whiskey containers fit a bung/airlock nicely and are great!). However, this last kit which I had also added berries to, I did not fully top up the Kirkland container. Also it was the end of the transfer and I got some lees in there.

When I transferred after a month I ruined some other wine as the overflow would not fit so I went to top off another. The stuff in the Kirkland container had gone off .. super super sulphury, and tainted everything it touched, which is currently soaking in PBW.

Between the lees and the headspace I think I had the problem. The main wine is fine.

 

[winemaker81]

@Aleatoric, I had a friend do exactly what you did. He lost a carboy but thankfully we smelled the wine before he topped a 50 gallon barrel. I was happy to learn the lesson vicariously! But quite unhappy for my friend.

This taught me to rack each container into a separate bucket and perform quality control (called "tasting" by amateurs!) on each, before blending.

 

[batman72]

Gosh, I never have topped off my Carboy before, now I don't usually have extra wine just laying around for that use, so I was thinking if I used water to fill it that could make a huge change to the reading and throw off things for sure, can anyone tell me if they have had any issues with not back filling after finishing wine into bottles? I personally haven't had any issues, but I haven't made that many wines. I can tell you what the Mango wine I am making right now is going to be really low after the first racking since there are sooo much lees at the bottom and it has only been 2 days..

 

[Aleatoric]

@batman72 - Curious ... it sounds to me like you are not bottling all at once. I'm not "pro" but I do have a few years of successes, and I can say that method is part of that. One thing is to have a couple batches of similar wine going, staggered in timing. That way there is almost always something similar to top up with ... in fact this can be planned. But you have to get a rhythm going first, and that takes a bit of time, and barring influence from Murphy. If you are not bottling all at once .. why not? In my little world, I rack the final time (making sure no lees!) to a sanitised carboy, vacuum degas a bit, and then bottle all of it, corking as I go. This minimises the potential oxidation, and certainly no topping up during this procedure!

@winemaker81 Oh horrors! I've never lost more than what I described (about 1750ml) so far (lucky). Yes, normally I would taste (as in a particular berry wine I was dabbling with oaking .. I blended the oaked and the nonoaked, (and regretted it, as the oak was awesome)). In the cases as described above, when I use excess from one (or itself) to top up the next racking, yes, I certainly do "taste". More often, in situations with small excess amounts in ancillary fermenters, I'll simply bottle those separately.

I'm not a pro ... in fact I named my fledgling brewery/meadery/winery "Aleatoric" for that is largely the way I work. : )

 

[batman72]

@batman72 - Curious ... it sounds to me like you are not bottling all at once. I'm not "pro" but I do have a few years of successes, and I can say that method is part of that. One thing is to have a couple batches of similar wine going, staggered in timing. That way there is almost always something similar to top up with ... in fact this can be planned. But you have to get a rhythm going first, and that takes a bit of time, and barring influence from Murphy. If you are not bottling all at once .. why not? In my little world, I rack the final time (making sure no lees!) to a sanitised carboy, vacuum degas a bit, and then bottle all of it, corking as I go. This minimises the potential oxidation, and certainly no topping up during this procedure!

@winemaker81 Oh horrors! I've never lost more than what I described (about 1750ml) so far (lucky). Yes, normally I would taste (as in a particular berry wine I was dabbling with oaking .. I blended the oaked and the nonoaked, (and regretted it, as the oak was awesome)). In the cases as described above, when I use excess from one (or itself) to top up the next racking, yes, I certainly do "taste". More often, in situations with small excess amounts in ancillary fermenters, I'll simply bottle those separately.

I'm not a pro ... in fact I named my fledgling brewery/meadery/winery "Aleatoric" for that is largely the way I work. : )

Actually, I bottle all of the gallon at the same time, I was just simply talking about the backfilling after first and second racking, right now my grape wine and strawberry wine are in the clearing stage and both are sitting about 3 to three inches below the bottom of airlock, I actually starting boiling water right now and I am thinking about topping them both off with it.

 

[Aleatoric]

That's a classic situation. It's a nomenclature thing. Lots of people call a 1 gallon batch something you can make in a 1 gallon jug. (or 3, or 5, or 6 carboy, depending). I prefer to call the batch size the intended result volume, and go to great lengths to try to achieve it. IN so doing I've devised my own step-racking volume method, that all but eliminates having to top up with other substances. Rather, I use a kettle or fermenter sized so that I can actually ferment an amount slightly greater than the batch size. That way, on the first racking, you are topped up. (if you have enough left over, put it in a smaller vessel for second racking, but if not, just drink it)

Then, there is a wonderful trick. Those Rossi jugs? The 1 gal jugs that come with wine in them? Last time I bought wine it was specifically to get the jugs. Those are slightly larger in capacity than the 1 gallon jugs on Amazon. So ... Rack 1 into the Rossi jug. Rack 2 into the Amazon jug (no top up required, seriously!) Rack 3 (for wine) is often the last, and then bottling. This minimises headspace issues. It's harder when doing carboy-sized batches, but I have a lot of various sizes of jugs and whatnot for using planned overflow. It's worse in the 3-gallon carboy sizes, as there is no 2 gallon carboy, and one must size down to jugs. In fact, that's what I end up doing ... but it's a liquid tetris fest.

 

[Keiyh]

Another option, as you don't have that much space and to avoid "blending with similar wine", is to go get some glass marbles, sanitize them, then put them in to the container till you get a smaller headspace.

Have you ever done this? I’m about to. I assume it will work and take up the head space. I have a lot of space as I had 2 skin bags in my Finer Wine kit. Purchased 6 pounds of glass marbles on Amazon.

 

[mainshipfred]

Have you ever done this? I’m about to. I assume it will work and take up the head space. I have a lot of space as I had 2 skin bags in my Finer Wine kit. Purchased 6 pounds of glass marbles on Amazon.

This is just one article so take it for what it's worth as this discussion came up in the past. Since crystal is so expensive I can't imagine cheap glass marbles, especially if clear, would contain lead. I have about 10 lbs worth myself but only used them once and I have no idea if they contain lead or not. I will tell you though I will not stop drinking wine out of my crystal.

"A recent study reported that wine and spirits can leach lead from crystal, and while no one is suggesting that $150 lead crystal goblets or $2,000 decanters be discarded, the Food and Drug Administration is recommending that people rethink the way they use lead crystal containers for food and beverages.

Lead is a chronic hazard that can damage the nervous system, the kidneys and bone marrow. Fetuses and small children are particularly sensitive to lead.

Jerry Burke, the director of the F.D.A.'s Office of Physical Science, made these recommendations:

* Do not use lead crystal every day. Occasional use is all right, but if you have a daily glass of wine, don't drink it from a crystal goblet.

* Don't store foods or beverages for long periods in crystal. This is particularly true for acidic juices, vinegar and alcoholic beverages. Mr. Burke defines a week or two as long. Others say overnight is the maximum."

 

[cmason1957]

Have you ever done this? I’m about to. I assume it will work and take up the head space. I have a lot of space as I had 2 skin bags in my Finer Wine kit. Purchased 6 pounds of glass marbles on Amazon.

I'm not sure I understand why having 2 skin bags gives a very large amount of headspace. I hope you didn't put the skins in, then fill to 6 gallons. If you did, then you are probably short a great deal of water in your wine. But I would expect then your starting sg would have been higher than normal.