Help Reaching Goal

[Oyarsa]

So I have a concoction I would like to try making. I have some goals for it and would like advice on meeting those goals.

First...a little background. I am relatively new to brewing/wine making. I made a somewhat successful kit "mist wine" and have a second that appears to be going well and almost finished. I have started a chocolate stout beer kit, but it isn't done yet.

The only non-kit attempt I've made was for a 1 gallon tamarind wine. It unfortunately got infected somehow and it appears to have created mucho amounts of ethyl acetate. I had to toss the batch. I took tamarind pods from the store, shelled them and simmered the pulp in water, pushed the pulp through a sieve tp remove seeds/fibers, added water, sugar, pectic enzyme, yeast nutrient, and yeast as per the recipe I found. The wine fermented like crazy and popped the airlock. It sat for probably about an hour with the airlock off. I suspect that the infection either occurred during that period, or it was a result of not sanitizing the must. I didn't boil the liquid or use any campden tablets.

So...my goals for this next concoction:

-I want a tamarind based beverage that is carbonated.
-I want it to taste somewhat like tamarind candy (which is tamarind, chili, lime, and salt).
-I want it to be quick and not need to age quite so long so I won't have to wait a year to find out if I did something wrong before trying again.
-I don't really care how much alcohol it has in the end, but I was thinking of something more like 8%.

What I'm thinking is to take 4 packs of tamarind pods (the previous recipe I used 2, but I'd like to do 2 gallons this time). I calculate that about 1 and 3/4 lbs of sugar should put me in the ballpark for the lower ABV. I would simmer the pulp and strain it as I did before (to remove seeds and fibers). Put the resulting liquid (probably about a quart) in my 3 gallon bucket, add 2 gallons of water, add the sugar, check with hydrometer and adjust as necessary. This time I will crush up campden tablets (2 or so) and add to the must. Let it sit for 24 hours, then add the pectic enzyme, yeast nutrient, and yeast. Would that be the right order?

I would ferment till it is dry, then take a sample and add lime juice from a bottle, xylitol, chili powder, and perhaps salt (maybe) till I reach the taste I'm going for. Adjust the amounts to scale up to the full batch.

Would I need to account for the sugar in the lime juice somehow, or should I be adding lime at the beginning to ferment with the tamarind? If the latter, how much would I add?

Once I have the taste I like, add the proper amount of priming sugar and bottle...

Sound like a good plan? Suggestions? Thoughts?

 

[Scooter68]

Based on your previous posts and problems, I don't know that your going to have much success with your 'concoction'

IF - you really want to make a good wine, this is the site to learn from and there are plenty of folks to help you.

HOWEVER, kit instructions and basic wine making procedures exist for a reason - If you don't follow them, all the guidance and good words are not going to help you out.

AND - if you don't have the patience to wait for things to age a minimum amount, wine making might not be a good hobby for you.

 

[pgentile]

8% ABV and carbonated, you are looking more to make a beer than a wine. Go to homebrewtalk.com there are several conversations about tamarind.

Beer is ready to drink in weeks from making it.

 

[Oyarsa]

Thank you, Scooter68. I have been trying to follow the kit instructions and wine making procedures, but mistakes happen. I'm not really sure what about my previous posts makes you feel I won't have much success, aside from my impatience. But again, my impatience comes from wanting to know how it all turned out so I can do better on my next attempt. It's hard to learn if you have to make a batch and wait several months to find out if you were successful. And to that end, that's why I am asking for suggestions on something that would be quick.

Pgentile, yes I agree, but I posted in the cider section of homebrewtalk.com and people there suggested posting in the wine section because I'm not planning on using apples. What I am wanting to do isn't mead because it doesn't have honey, isn't beer because it doesn't have hops or malt, isn't cider or perry because it doesn't have apples or cider. The only difference between what I am trying to do and a sparkling wine is the lower alcohol content, so I figured it was worth asking here...

 

[Scooter68]

When you speak of making Wine - the word "Quick" just doesn't work. To expect a wine to be ready in several months, is not the norm. For a DB or SP batch perhaps, but not for a wine - with wine you are talking in terms of at least 12 months to have good wine. Trying to turn out a wine in less time and you are going to have a sharp-edged beverage that will be alcoholic but not much a great deal more than that.

Also the Alcohol content will be problematic.
While this may sound snobbish or harsh I would suggest the following rough definitions:
6 weeks to 6 months = An wine-like alcoholic beverage sharp around the edges
6 months to 12 months = A young wine still lacking in depth and well rounded character
12 months to 18 months = A solid wine that can be shared and enjoyed
18 months and beyond = Wine that is mature and demonstrates the craft of the wine maker and quality the source.

Again that may seem rather snobbish but in some eyes anything not made exclusively with grapes is not wine.

I'm just trying to say that efforts to rush wine, meads or even beers can end up in a frustrating experience.

I've only been at this for about 3 1/3 years and that isn't even long enough for some wines to reach maturity.
If I say it as 40 months that may seem like a long time but in terms of wine making that's just barely 3 seasons of grapes.


As to Tamarind Wine here's a few links that might help:
http://www.mixph.com/how-to-make-tamarind-wine/
https://www.pinoybisnes.com/money-making-business-ideas/tamarind-fruit-wine-making/
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/wineblog9.asp (Scroll down to March 4, 2007)

 

[Oyarsa]

Yes, I realize that good wine takes time, which is part of why I'm not trying to make a typical wine, but something along the lines of cider without apples. I realize that the more patient I am even in this endeavor, the better the product, but honestly I'm not going so much for a finished product as a rough draft. Something to learn from and make adjustments and THEN take the time that will make it a finished product.

If I felt more confident in a recipe, I might not be in such a hurry, but I am skeptical that I will make what I am envisioning on my second try (the first failed).

Thank you for the links. The recipes are all essentially the same and are what I used for my first attempt. I think it would have worked, but it was infected. As I mentioned in my first post, I think that is because I did not do anything to sanitize the must, and hence my question about doing so. One thing I have also realized from rereading the recipes is that they did not use the pulp in their wine, just the water that the pulp was simmered in. Wouldn't using the pulp add more flavor?

Why do you feel that the alcohol content would be problematic?

 

[CK55]

Yes, I realize that good wine takes time, which is part of why I'm not trying to make a typical wine, but something along the lines of cider without apples. I realize that the more patient I am even in this endeavor, the better the product, but honestly I'm not going so much for a finished product as a rough draft. Something to learn from and make adjustments and THEN take the time that will make it a finished product.

If I felt more confident in a recipe, I might not be in such a hurry, but I am skeptical that I will make what I am envisioning on my second try (the first failed).

Thank you for the links. The recipes are all essentially the same and are what I used for my first attempt. I think it would have worked, but it was infected. As I mentioned in my first post, I think that is because I did not do anything to sanitize the must, and hence my question about doing so. One thing I have also realized from rereading the recipes is that they did not use the pulp in their wine, just the water that the pulp was simmered in. Wouldn't using the pulp add more flavor?

Why do you feel that the alcohol content would be problematic?

Use campden tabs prior to fermentation add one per gallon and then wait 24 hours. Loosely cover it during that period go let gas escape but not let anything in. Then add your yeast. That will help with infections. Also make sure any containers you use are clean, I recommend Star San.

 

[Oyarsa]

Thank you for the suggestion. Am I right in my thinking that the pectic enzyme and yeast nutrient would be added just before the yeast?

 

[Scooter68]

Pectic Enzyme should be the first thing added to your fruit. The longer it has to work on breaking down the pectin in the fruit the better. The yeast nutrient can be added just before the yeast.

Don't forget to check the acidity before you attempt to start fermentation.
Three elements are necessary to protect the wine from spoiling once it has fermented:
1) Enough Alcohol, 9 -10% is the normal bottom line for most wines as a goal,
2) Sufficient acid (Somewhere between a pH of 3.4-3.6) and
3) Potassium Metabisulfate (K-Meta / Campden Tablets)
If any of those three elements are insufficient the wine can spoil

As suggested the campden tablet(s) are initially added help kill off stray bacteria and stun any wild yeasts lurking in the mix. After fermentation is completed you should add them again unless you are to immediately consume the wine. (within a few weeks)

 

[Oyarsa]

What do you recommend to use to check the pH?

Should I add the pectic enzyme and wait for a while before adding the campden tablets? I need to research how pectic enzyme works...

Thank you for your time and suggestions!

 

[Oyarsa]

I found a spot that suggested adding the campden tablets, wait 12 hours, add the pectic enzyme, then wait another 12 before the yeast.

Sounds like with everything else, there are multiple ways of doing it....

 

[Scooter68]

Pectic Enzyme first - in fact if you are pressing or cutting up and using a juicer, add the Pectic Enzyme (PE) immediately.

There's no negative to adding before the Campden tablet. I've added PE to peaches as I cut them up and put them in bags until I was ready to run them through my juicer.

 

[Oyarsa]

Ok. Sounds like I'm on track, then. Prepped the fruit, added pectic enzyme, campden tablet, waiting 24 hours to pitch yeast. Buuuttt...I picked up some litmus paper today (entire range of pH values) and it has a pH of about 2. Tamarind is pretty acidic. Do I need to do something?

 

[Oyarsa]

Some quick research makes me think I should leave it alone. Sounds like potassium bicarbonate isn't an option (would take too much), and I'm thinking it would require too much water to dilute it (I have 2 gallons currently in a 3 gallon bucket).

If I understand correctly, the low pH is in some ways protective, but just means the result will be tart. However, since I'm trying to mimic tamarind candy, that probably won't be a bad thing...

 

[Scooter68]

I would suggest you retest that juice. 2.0 is remarkably acidic to the point of making a liquid really unpalatable.
While acidity is protective - I doubt that any yeast will ferment in a liquid that acidic.

Litmus paper is difficult to read for wine making. Dark wines are tough to impossible to read with the paper and even lighter colored wines can present problems.
Your best bet is to invest in a pH meter. You can do both pH tests and TA test with a pH meter. TA testing is preferred by some wine makers so with a pH meter all you have to do is buy a bottle of Sodium Hydroxide and follow instructions readily available on the web.

HOWEVER - For starting out I would just recommend pH testing with a pH meter.

By the way most folks use Calcium Carbonate for raising the pH of a wine must. ]

 

[Oyarsa]

Well, I didn't have a chance to get calcium carbonate or any other method of increasing the alkalinity. I'm pitching my yeast this morning once the snack pack sets the suggested amount of time. We'll see what happens.

Thanks for your help, Scooter68.

 

[Stressbaby]

@Oyarsa, a couple of things...

• First, you do not need the prefermentation doses of Campden tablets. The pulp is simmered which would take care of any native yeast or other bugs. You should dose with Campden at or near the end of alcoholic fermentation to prevent spoilage, whether you dosed prefermentation or not.
• If your litmus paper covers the entire range (0-14) it is probably not sensitive enough to work for wine.
• Tamarind pulp has lots of acid and the pH *could* be 2 but I wouldn't necessarily add any calcium carbonate until you can more accurately measure it. If fermenation takes off (as it apparently did last time), it's almost certainly a lot higher than 2.0.
• The pH is not really what determines how acidic or sour it tastes; the taste element is determined by the TA. If you get a pH meter you can check that too.
• Tamarind has tartaric acid. I would definitely cold stabilize this beverage. If you don't you may end up with wine diamonds in the bottles. Cold stabilization does unintuitive things to pH and acid - read up and post back if you don't get it.
• I would suggest handling the lime using zest rather than lime juice. You'll get all of the lime aroma and flavor and at the same time you won't mess up the acid balance or risk refermentation. Just add the lime zest to the secondary after alcoholic fermentation is done and keep any eye on it, removing (or racking off) once you have the infusion of lime you desire.

 

[Oyarsa]

Thank you for your response, Stressbaby. I'll have to investigate cold stabilizing and give the lime zest a try. Is there a commercially available sterile preparation, or would I need to sanitize the lime before zesting?

Right now my issue is a lack of fermentation at all. I gave it about 36 hours between using the campden tablets (before your suggestion) and pitching a Wyeast 4766 cider smack pack. The last attempt was with Lalvin EC-1118. I let the smack pack have the 3 hours suggested in the instructions. The pack swelled up some, though not dramatically. This is my first use of a smack pack, so I don't know how large they are supposed to get. Stirred the yeast in. Now it's been about another 30 hours and no sign of fermentation. I sloshed it around more, so maybe that will help. Temperature is around 72.

 

[Stressbaby]

Thank you for your response, Stressbaby. I'll have to investigate cold stabilizing and give the lime zest a try. Is there a commercially available sterile preparation, or would I need to sanitize the lime before zesting?

Right now my issue is a lack of fermentation at all. I gave it about 36 hours between using the campden tablets (before your suggestion) and pitching a Wyeast 4766 cider smack pack. The last attempt was with Lalvin EC-1118. I let the smack pack have the 3 hours suggested in the instructions. The pack swelled up some, though not dramatically. This is my first use of a smack pack, so I don't know how large they are supposed to get. Stirred the yeast in. Now it's been about another 30 hours and no sign of fermentation. I sloshed it around more, so maybe that will help. Temperature is around 72.

Re: lime, just wash it and zest it and put it in. It's easier to get out if you remove the zest in large strips with a potato peeler rather than using something like a microplaner.

Given your pH reading that would be the first thing I'd check if fermentation doesn't get going.

 

[Oyarsa]

I realized I hadn't added yeast nutrient, so I added some today and gave it a good stir. I'll see how it is doing tomorrow after work. If it still appears to not be fermenting I'll check the pH again and go from there.