Help with small vineyard planning

[Ct Winemaker]

Take a look at Double A vineyards. Vine prices are very reasonable, and their web site is very helpful for making decisions, including trellis system.

 

[ChuckD]

I did end up ordering my vines from Double A. Both varieties I chose list Top Wire Cordon as the recommended trellis system. Part of my confusion is not being familiar with the abbreviations and not being able to picture them in my head. I have also seen some conflicting information on different sites concerning the same grapes including the VSP for Marquette. Right now, I'm leaning towards simple, and it looks like TWC or the Umbrella Kniffin are leading the pack. I hope to see some vineyards and talk to some vine growers before I decide.

I also decided to angle the rows as shown in the drawing, mainly for aesthetic reasons. I like Obbnw's idea of putting in low rock walls and terracing the site. It might not make a difference in growth or production but it sure would look nice and hey, I need the exercise.

 

[VinesnBines]

Double A is my source. They have suffered low stock last year and this. Fortunately they are planning ahead and encouraging orders for 2023 and beyond. I love the prices and their service. I've called and begged for vines and got results.

As for large growers rooting and grafting their own vines, that is not an industry practice due to the need for clean, certified vines. Disease transmission is a huge worry and no one wants to lose acres from the start. It is bad enough once the vines are growing. Also, rooting and grafting takes manpower, time and space that most growers don't have. I can root on a hobby basis but my success rate is limited and I prefer certainty.

Anyway, excellent choice with Double A!

 

[jackl]

I'm in upstate NY, zone 4b around 20 miles East of the Finger Lakes, a major wine growing region. My site isn't ideal for grapes from both location and soil perspectives, so over the years I've experimented with a number of cold hardy wine grape varieties, trellis systems, and vineyard management practices.

I first experimented with concords, but transitioned to wine grapes and planted Lacrosse, Traminette, Frontenac and Marquette. Frontenac is a vigorous grower with small loosely bunched berries, but it was a pain to manage and also susceptible to Black Rot. I pulled those last spring and planted Marquette. For reds, I've now pretty much settled on Marquette.

As for whites, I have some Traminette, but the winters have not been kind to them! I also have Lacrosse, but I've had a hard time getting them to ripen to an acceptable brix level. I may pull those this spring and plant more Marquette or Traminette.

My rows are oriented North/South. At the recommendation of a friend who owns a very large vineyard in the Fingerlakes as well as research from Cornell, I've settled on VSP with quadrilateral canes and 2 fruiting wires and 3 catch wires on each side. This gives me 2 fruiting zones. This is an easy trellis system to set up and while you have to move wires up and tuck in vines as they grow, it's really not an issue at my scale.

To protect against cold winter vine loss, each vine has 2 main trunks. This way, if I loose one, I can rely on the other as a backup. I prune each of the 4 canes to about 6 buds per cane, or 24 buds per plant. I keep detailed track of my yields and average around 16-22 pounds per vine (as long as I bird net in time!).

With our short summers, to maximize sugar content and get my pH up to an acceptable level, I keep my vines trimmed during the summer, and as the summer progresses leaf prune to get sun exposure. While the Marquette's are fairly disease resistant, I also practice a regimented fungicide application program based on reports from the Cornell weather/disease site. My major insect damage comes from Japanese beetles in mid/late summer which I control with insecticide.

Enjoy, but as an owner of a nursery once told me, life is too short so if you have a plant you dont like pull it out and plant something else!

 

[ChuckD]

Thanks jakle

I’m still working on the design. I have been told by my wife that I need to include blackberries as well as they make Some Of her favorite wines. I have a book coming in the mail on raising grapes in cold climates by Plocher for some light winter reading. Hopefully it has some good information on varieties and trellising. I probably have room for 80 or 90 vines total so I hope to get the whole area prepared this year and fill it in over the next few.

what kind of plant and row spacing do you have?

 

[Vern]

Thanks jakle

I’m still working on the design. I have been told by my wife that I need to include blackberries as well as they make Some Of her favorite wines. I have a book coming in the mail on raising grapes in cold climates by Plocher for some light winter reading. Hopefully it has some good information on varieties and trellising. I probably have room for 80 or 90 vines total so I hope to get the whole area prepared this year and fill it in over the next few.

what kind of plant and row spacing do you have?

I am in SE Wisconsin. With Marquette, petite pearl and verona varieties. Planted north and south, 9 feet rows and 7.5 feet spacing. Works good for me.

 

[ChuckD]

I am in SE Wisconsin. With Marquette, petite pearl and verona varieties. Planted north and south, 9 feet rows and 7.5 feet spacing. Works good for me.

How do you like the petite pearl. This is one I see coming up a lot with northern growers along with Marquette. I’m no purist (hell I’m still making my first batch of grape wine and it’s from wild grapes) so I’m ok with blending, adding sugar, mixing with other fruits, back sweetening etc. Actually I’m learning a lot and only recently realized you can’t make Merlot from Marquette grapes . I just want to make good wine that my wife and I like to drink. That typically means semi-sweet. So far I have had good success with fruits and want to step up to grapes.

 

[ChuckD]

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Double A is my source. They have suffered low stock last year and this. Fortunately they are planning ahead and encouraging orders for 2023 and beyond. I love the prices and their service. I've called and begged for vines and got results.

As for large growers rooting and grafting their own vines, that is not an industry practice due to the need for clean, certified vines. Disease transmission is a huge worry and no one wants to lose acres from the start. It is bad enough once the vines are growing. Also, rooting and grafting takes manpower, time and space that most growers don't have. I can root on a hobby basis but my success rate is limited and I prefer certainty.

Anyway, excellent choice with Double A!

I see in a different post you mention that you cover your Foch vines. I assume this is for protection from cold. Is this something I would have to do in zone 4b? If so I’ll probably rethink that choice and change that order to a different cultivar.

 

[VinesnBines]

I cover ALL my grafted vines. I mound dirt up over the graft to protect from freezing and YES in any zone where temperatures fall below freezing, grafted vines should be covered regardless of the variety. Foch is supposed to be very winter hardy so if self - rooted (not grafted) you should not need to worry about covering. I prefer self-rooted because of the labor needed to cover the vines and the short time between growing season and freezing season - sometimes just a day.

The purpose of covering is to prevent freezing. If the sap freezes and bursts the trunk at the graft, crown gall (which is soil borne) can infect the vines and over time the vine will die and other vines can be infected with crown gall. Tall grafted vines do not need to be covered. The graft is 12 inches above the ground and the risk of soil borne crown gall is greatly reduced.

On the other hand, vinifera varieties need to be grafted to protected from root phylloxera so there is no choice but cover or buy the (expensive) tall grafted vines.

 

[Vern]

How do you like the petite pearl. This is one I see coming up a lot with northern growers along with Marquette. I’m no purist (hell I’m still making my first batch of grape wine and it’s from wild grapes) so I’m ok with blending, adding sugar, mixing with other fruits, back sweetening etc. Actually I’m learning a lot and only recently realized you can’t make Merlot from Marquette grapes . I just want to make good wine that my wife and I like to drink. That typically means semi-sweet. So far I have had good success with fruits and want to step up to grapes.

My first wine from grapes was pure Marquette, wine was ok. Next time I added 30% petite pearl and wine was good. Now that I added verona to the mix the wine is outstanding. I'm no expert wine person just my opinion. If you are ever around the lake geneva area, pm me and we can taste some.

 

[ChuckD]

So I’m still doing some vineyard planning. I have decided to lay out my rows so they are more north-south. The three or four shorter rows on the left of the photo are going to be blackberry canes. I’ll still have space for about 90 vines with 9-foot row spacing and 7-foot plant spacing.

I have two questions.How much space should I leave between the vineyard and the field? The picture has 20 feet. Are grapes very susceptible to herbicide drift? Also, do I need to control wild grapes for some distance from the vineyard? They are everywhere around here.

 

[ibglowin]

Yes grapes are incredibly susceptible to herbicide spray drift. You should talk with your neighbor now if you haven't already and let them know your planting grapes and ask for their help in the Spring. If the wind is blowing in the right direction and hard enough herbicide can drift for as much as a mile.

So I’m still doing some vineyard planning. I have decided to lay out my rows so they are more north-south. The three or four shorter rows on the left of the photo are going to be blackberry canes. I’ll still have space for about 90 vines with 9-foot row spacing and 7-foot plant spacing.

I have two questions.How much space should I leave between the vineyard and the field? The picture has 20 feet. Are grapes very susceptible to herbicide drift? Also, do I need to control wild grapes for some distance from the vineyard? They are everywhere around here.

View attachment 83415

 

[ChuckD]

The field is my property. I rent it to a neighbor. I was going to enlist him in tilling the field, which has been fallow for 20 years. I know he contracts his spraying out, or the Co-op does it. I actually had a problem with the spray several years ago. He burned the leaves on apple trees nearly 40 yards from the field. I talked to him and it hasn’t happened since.

I’ll definitely talk to him and post signs so the spray-guy knows. And wild grapes must be pretty resistant. The trees on the field edges are full of vines.

 

[Joe B.]

You sure have been provided a lot of good information, the only thing I would add if your in an area with a deer population you will need a deer fence. They will destroy a young vineyard in no time

 

[ChuckD]

if your in an area with a deer population you will need a deer fence. They will destroy a young vineyard in no time

Really?? . I’m kinda on the edge of good farm country with ample woods and wetlands so yeah… we have lots of deer. I’m in a perpetual show-no-mercy war with rabbits and have them under control but I still have to erect a fence around the garden every year to keep the deer out. I hadn’t planned on 600 feet of deer fence right now. Could I get away with caging the vines for the first year? Also, do chickens and grapevines get along? Could I free-range my hens in the enclosure?

 

[montanarick]

i fenced my Montana vineyard with 5' welded wire mesh and it was very effective in keeping the deer out. put chicken wire cages around the young vines to deter rabbits.

 

[ChuckD]

i fenced my Montana vineyard with 5' welded wire mesh and it was very effective in keeping the deer out. put chicken wire cages around the young vines to deter rabbits.

I fence the garden With a 5’ temporary fence in the summer but it’s a small enclosure and deer don’t seem to like jumping into a small fenced area. Around here most people put in an 8-foot high-tensile fence for deer. I’m surprised deer like grape vines but I should have known. The list of what they won’t eat is quite small.

 

[VinesnBines]

I have tremendous deer pressure and grow tubes have been my protection from deer and rabbits. The deer will prune some of the vines that come out of the top of the tubes but the vines recover. They will also prune the young growth on the older vines but since i have to hedge the vines I count it as free labor. I’ve been lucky so far. I have 1.5 acres with vines from 1 year old to 4 years old.
I’ve been thinking of deer fence but haven’t pulled the trigger.

 

[ChuckD]

I have tremendous deer pressure and grow tubes have been my protection from deer and rabbits. The deer will prune some of the vines that come out of the top of the tubes but the vines recover. They will also prune the young growth on the older vines but since i have to hedge the vines I count it as free labor. I’ve been lucky so far. I have 1.5 acres with vines from 1 year old to 4 years old.
I’ve been thinking of deer fence but haven’t pulled the trigger.

Thanks. I feel better about it now! I have my first 24 vines arriving this spring and I didn’t budget for a deer fence. Did you use grow tubes right from the start? How tall are the tubes? I see you use the VSP trellising but a lot of the studies for Marquette say to go with a high wire system. That should make the vines harder for the deer to brows, no?

 

[VinesnBines]

I put 36 inch grow tubes on the vines as soon as they are in the ground. For a second year vine, I use a 24 inch grow tube (easier to get on and off). I leave the tubes on until sometime in September (whenever I get a chance to get them off). The Blue X tubes are fine for first year vines and can be reused but they are a devil to get off the second year vines. I ended up having to slit the outer blue vinyl to get them off. Since then I have been using the blue tubes on the first year vines and Plantra wrap around tubes for the second year vines. I'm expanding by 250 to 300 vines a year so I keep reusing the tubes.

Deer can reach really high so I don't think the trellis system will be much protection. They will stand on their hind legs to reach fruit so I expect they would nibble fresh growth at 6 feet. A dog roaming the vineyard at night will probably help.

I think I would keep the chickens out of the vineyard, certainly after you start to get a crop. Everything like grapes; birds, turkeys, racoons, deer, fox, bear, I'm sure chickens will eat grapes too.