HI84502

[SeniorHobby]

Hello,
I have been playing with making wine over the past five years. I have come to find out that is was more time consuming than I had time for, so I put it on the back burner for when I had more time to devote to it. Now that I am retired I would like to put a little more effort into trying it again. I have tasted home made wine from other winemakers and they always seemed to have that certain "odor". The wine tasted great, but I couldn't get past that smell. So I thought that I would make an investment in an instrument to help with the balance of the wines. I want to put it out the that I did not take a lot of science in high school, but thought that I could read directions and learn anything. Well, it didn't quite pan out that way. I got stuck in the most basic process, calibrating the electrode. Over my years of work I have learned that once you learn the language of what you are trying to learn, the learning begins. The words titrant and buffers mean nothing to me. The directions didn't say which solutions to use at each step of the way. I did get through the dosing the pump procedure. After that I tried different solutions and received error messages. I found the onscreen help screens worthless. So it is sitting there not being used. I am hoping that might be able to get some help with this.
Thanks,
SeniorHobby

 

[sour_grapes]

Welcome to WMT!

It sounds like you are talking about a pH meter. Could you share what brand/model you purchased?

 

[SeniorHobby]

Welcome to WMT!

It sounds like you are talking about a pH meter. Could you share what brand/model you purchased?

Thanks for responding. It is a Hanna Instruments 84502 Titrable Total Acidity Minititrator.

 

[Tim3]

You might want to ask if the homemade wines you’ve tried were made from kits, juice buckets, or grapes. The unusual smell you’re referencing is what we affectionately call KT. I’d guess it’s from the pasteurization or flash detente process, though exhibits itself primarily with red wine kits. I’ve never experienced that same odor with fresh grapes but have encountered that odor with every red kit wine I’ve tried. Anyway, PH balancing is unlikely going to remove that odor but it will certainly help with making great wine!

 

[ibglowin]

Is this the beast of which you have purchased?

https://www.hannainst.com/hi84502-total-acidity-mini-titrator-for-wine-analysis.html

 

[SeniorHobby]

You might want to ask if the homemade wines you’ve tried were made from kits, juice buckets, or grapes. The unusual smell you’re referencing is what we affectionately call KT. I’d guess it’s from the pasteurization or flash detente process, though exhibits itself primarily with red wine kits. I’ve never experienced that same odor with fresh grapes but have encountered that odor with every red kit wine I’ve tried. Anyway, PH balancing is unlikely going to remove that odor but it will certainly help with making great wine!

Hi, the wines I have tasted have been home made, some from grapes, others from other fruits.

 

[SeniorHobby]

Is this the beast of which you have purchased?

https://www.hannainst.com/hi84502-total-acidity-mini-titrator-for-wine-analysis.html

Pretty close, everything except the -01 at the end. The one you listed might be the newer version. I bought mine this past spring and haven't had success so it has been sitting for a few months.

 

[SeniorHobby]

Hi, the wines I have tasted have been home made, some from grapes, others from other fruits.

Also, the wines I have tasted have been home made wines, pretty sure that the processes you have mentioned are way above the level of wine making that I am dealing with!

 

[Bossbaby]

Welcome to winemaking! I might suggest getting your feet wet with a kit wine, the instructions are easy to follow and It will help you to learn the basic steps and you can make a decent product. If you have questions along the way you know where to go for answers..

 

[Rice_Guy]

Welcome to Wine Making Talk

A Hanna mini titrator will automatically add & mix a sodium hydroxide solution (titrant) to an acidic liquid like wine till a target pH is reached.
Buffer is a liquid with measured potassium salts in it which will hug a target pH and they are typically colored as red pH 4.0 or green pH 7.0, The purpose of a buffer is to provide a known electrical potential (ionic back pressure) on potassium chloride slowly diffusing out of the electrode.
There is also storage solution which should equalize the back pressure of the slow leak of KCl
You also should have distilled water for rinsing the electrode of old ions when new sample or storage solution is used, food residue can mold.

A lot of country wines that make it to state fair smell of oxidation (acetaldehyde), this goes back to the comment you will see about keeping air to a minimum.
Another common defect on whites is sulfur, sewer.
Neither of these are involved in TA (Titratable acidity) which is a flavor defect where the wine could taste weak (flat soda) or too acidic (eating rhubarb without sugar). ,,,, Sugar is magic in fixing high acidity.

 

[SeniorHobby]

Welcome to Wine Making Talk

A Hanna mini titrator will automatically add & mix a sodium hydroxide solution (titrant) to an acidic liquid like wine till a target pH is reached.
Buffer is a liquid with measured potassium salts in it which will hug a target pH and they are typically colored as red pH 4.0 or green pH 7.0, The purpose of a buffer is to provide a known electrical potential (ionic back pressure) on potassium chloride slowly diffusing out of the electrode.
There is also storage solution which should equalize the back pressure of the slow leak of KCl
You also should have distilled water for rinsing the electrode of old ions when new sample or storage solution is used, food residue can mold.

A lot of country wines that make it to state fair smell of oxidation (acetaldehyde), this goes back to the comment you will see about keeping air to a minimum.
Another common defect on whites is sulfur, sewer.
Neither of these are involved in TA (Titratable acidity) which is a flavor defect where the wine could taste weak (flat soda) or too acidic (eating rhubarb without sugar). ,,,, Sugar is magic in fixing high acidity.

Welcome to Wine Making Talk

A Hanna mini titrator will automatically add & mix a sodium hydroxide solution (titrant) to an acidic liquid like wine till a target pH is reached.
Buffer is a liquid with measured potassium salts in it which will hug a target pH and they are typically colored as red pH 4.0 or green pH 7.0, The purpose of a buffer is to provide a known electrical potential (ionic back pressure) on potassium chloride slowly diffusing out of the electrode.
There is also storage solution which should equalize the back pressure of the slow leak of KCl
You also should have distilled water for rinsing the electrode of old ions when new sample or storage solution is used, food residue can mold.

A lot of country wines that make it to state fair smell of oxidation (acetaldehyde), this goes back to the comment you will see about keeping air to a minimum.
Another common defect on whites is sulfur, sewer.
Neither of these are involved in TA (Titratable acidity) which is a flavor defect where the wine could taste weak (flat soda) or too acidic (eating rhubarb without sugar). ,,,, Sugar is magic in fixing high acidity.

I have done the wine kits already and thought that I would try homemade wine after that. I am having concerns with my total acidity and ph. What is the best way to have these balanced so that the wines will taste good and also age without going bad? This was my goal in purchasing the mini titrator.

 

[Tim3]

So there’s a lot to unpack with that question. There are decision trees you need to make with regards to: sanitation, additives (so2, enzymes, tannins), balancing (sugar and acidity), primary fermentation technique, press technique, oak regime, racking processes (time spent on lees, battonage, etc), length of elevage, and finally blending techniques. At its core, wine is considered age worthy when it has good acidity and tannin levels. So if you’re going for a higher acid (3.6 ending PH in reds), higher tannin wine that will take 5+ years to age out and develop complexity in the meantime, then your decisions will need to reflect that. Just keep in mind those wines tend to taste harsh when young. There’s a reason the old Barolo producers used to age for 30 years before bringing to market.

 

[Tim3]

As a follow up, getting the titrator was a great step towards understanding your starting numbers in your must. I might also recommend a refractometer. With those tools you’ll have what you need to make your decisions in your “balancing” tree, essentially being potential acid additions, waterback, chaptalization, and nutrient additions.

 

[Rice_Guy]

* ? How to use the info? I have posted a number of looks at TA related to specific gravity on WMT, as Tim notes this relates to balance on the finished wine. A general statement, very low TA wines will balance when dry, high TA wines or soda or fruit punches will balance with more sugar (ie get repeated purchases in the grocery store)


* wine making isn’t hard, we can go to the Old Settlement Cookbook 1901 with instructions on how to make a variety of wines with native yeast on the skin of the fruit. ,,, A general concept, if fruit juice tastes OK/ we can drink by the glass then it is in the TA range where a finished wine is OK. ,,,, ie most grape juices and not lemon juice or cranberry or rhubarb. ,,,, you will find most products in the grape market work by the numbers.
* I do mostly fruit wines which are like “formulated foods with ten ingredients”. In this case TA is an excellent tool to create novel mixes without a recipe.
* I run QA on buckets which the vinters club sells and give recommendations on how to tweak the juice. My impression is that most folks ignore the numbers and just make wine with the juice. It works. Rating risk, air exposure, poor cleaning and low nutrients on white grape probably are more important to club members.
* if you want to talk TA acidity formulating beverages message to me for the number, I have worked in a food lab and purchased/ played with a number of tools

 

[SeniorHobby]

Oh My,
I would like to consider myself a very beginner in the wine making process. I have made probably less than 20 batches of home made wine with minimal success. I think that I have been pretty good about keeping the sanitation process thorough. I just recently purchased a book with a little more detail about the process of wine making. I became even more overwhelmed. From what I gather, I need to get a PH meter which might help with knowing where my must stands before starting the fermentation process. I thought that if I know my PH and acids I would be able to take off with my wine making. Thus the purchase of the titrator. I think I will probably start with getting my PH figured out and forget about the acids for now. My acid tests in the past have just been adding the wine to a liquid (can't remember the name as it's been a while) a few drops at a time and looking at the color. When I did this it was always a little guessing game, ok, did that make a substantial change or not? I really just need to get back into the process just to understand it a bit before I try to get more detailed.

 

[SeniorHobby]

Can I get a recommendation on the name of a good PH meter?

 

[Tim3]

I believe that fancy pants titrator you have should measure PH as well, and better than anything most of us have! Though if you're a beginner and don't want to mess with acid adjustments another option is to just get excellent grapes. Brehm Vineyards or winegrapesdirect are my favorite sources, though depending on where you live the shipping can get expensive so many of our midwest and east coast friends might have other recommendations. You can trust the measurements they've posted (I've verified and have never been misled), and many of those pails have such great starting numbers they don't need any additions. For the red varieties, assuming you undergo malolactic fermentation, those pails should start with a brix between 22 - 25 and a PH between 3.2 - 3.4. White varieties would be a brix between 20 - 24 and starting PH's of 3.1 - 3.3. I actually have some pails of Willamette Valley Pinot Gris in primary right now and the starting numbers were so great all I chose to do was pitch yeast and add some nutrients in doses. Same thing went for a few buckets of Fountaingrove Petite Sirah I made last year.

 

[Rembee]

Can I get a recommendation on the name of a good PH meter?

I have been using this ph meter for the past 18 months now with no issues. It's very easy to use and its accurate. If it sits up for a month between uses, I simply recalibrate it with the supplied standard solutions of 4, 7 and 10 ph.

Apera Instruments AI311 Premium Series PH60 Waterproof pH Pocket Tester Kit, Replaceable Probe, ±0.01 pH Accuracy Apera Instruments AI311 Premium Series PH60 Waterproof pH Pocket Tester Kit, Replaceable Probe, ±0.01 pH Accuracy: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

 

[SeniorHobby]

Thanks for the recommendation. I will check it out!

 

[Rice_Guy]

Haach has a built in pH meter. The tool works by having a calibrated pump add sodium hydroxide (AKA titrant) till the pH is 8.2. ,,,, The kit has phenothalene indicator which changes color at pH 8.2 so we are measuring the same thing just with a different tool.
Haach has a digital screen which should give the pH constantly, if you make note of it before you do the start button, this is your sample pH.
I use an Extech pH meter which was about $70. For me the deciding factor is it has a flat sample “bulb”/ thin glass so I can do a reading on a drop, or I can run solids like blocks of cheese. A good pH meter has a gel filled electrode, has a replaceable electrode, and a read out to 0.01 unit. ,,, 0.05 is good enough but they jump from .1 to .01 read out.

NOTE; I do manual titrations with the pH meter similar to what the Haach does.

Can I get a recommendation on the name of a good PH meter?

? ? ? Senior, did you post what kind of wine you like?
Grape as juice buckets or kits is pretty close to ideal. Me with country wines I have high pH as peach or plum and low pH as cornelian cherry and just right as grape or apple. ,,,, OH key point less than pH 4.0 to is a “fence” that keeps some families from growing, also over 5% alcohol is a “fence” that prevents most infections. Therefore we use pH to make a safe food.

TA is a flavor property.
Most of us risk oxidation issues, my quality improved when I assumed that free SO2 was zero and added the appropriate dose if residue was zero. I will bet that if you have flavor issues increased metabisulphite dosage will fix it.

Wine is fun and more folks want it, ,,,, kinda hard to give free rice samples or textured soy protein to the neighbors, ,,, AKA rice-Guy, former area of employment.