Homemade vs. Commercial and what I am doing to close the gap

[Ike64]

Good list @Ajmassa
The hard part is to remember to implement these come next fall.
My two cents worth.
2. I minimize rackings, too (mostly because of non-wine life). Stirring the lees (batonage) occasionally is important to increase mouthfeel and reduce acid of lower pH wines.
3. Totally agree.
4. I am definitely using jugs of ice next year. My fermentations went way too fast this year.
5. I recommend thorough, but not over vigorous punch downs. Two years ago I was way to vigorous and I think I oxidized the wine/must. This year I made sure the cap was broken-up and well mixed, but I was careful not to over do it. I think this still provides the yeast with plenty of oxygen.
11. I started filtering too. I don't like using fining agents. So, I let the wine rest in carboys until late summer, do a final rack with a fine filter and bottle. It doesn't necessarily add to the sterility of the wine, but it does reduce the amount of sediment.
12. @CDrew, dittos. Also, Colorado State University has an extension, in Grand Junction, to support Colorado's wine industry. Full disclosure, I buy my grapes from them. They run a complete wine chemistry profile on the fruit when it's picked and they will also run chemistry on my wine. I usually send them samples after primary. I'd highly recommend contacting State University extensions or community colleges in viticultural areas close to where you live. In my experience, their always willing to help and answer questions.

 

[stickman]

@Ajmassa all very good points. The main issue I always think about is what kind of wine are we trying to make, I imagine the answer is different for many of us. Do we match the wine making techniques to the fruit we have and the desired wine style? Here's another podcast for you, the whole podcast is good, but Pax Mahle starts at the 22 minute mark and discusses his thoughts on the wine style he likes and how he achieves it, this doesn't mean this is right for everyone, but it does show how different things can be. He's picking earlier than most, fermentation with stems included, whole cluster, sometimes a partial crush on all or part of the fruit, sometimes uses carbonic maceration which he also explains. He did receive a 100 points on one of his Syrah's, again it's not for everyone, but many very good points are discussed.

Geoff Kruth interviews Jason Haas of Tablas Creek and Pax Mahle of Pax Mahle Wines on working with Rhône grape varieties in California.
http://traffic.libsyn.com/guildsomm/Rhone_Grapes_in_California.mp3?dest-id=52314

 

[ibglowin]

Thanks @stickman enjoyed the detailed talk about Rhone varietals and the Paso AVA. We hit Tablas Creek back in September. Going to more than likely make a quick road trip back up to Paso in a few weeks as we will be back in the area.

 

[mainshipfred]

There are so many schools of thought on a lot of these topics, except fruit flies, and I'm afraid I'll never be able to understand most of them either through reading or practice. I truly believe in @stickman's comment on the desired wine style. That along with our belief in a theory, successful past experiences or just the fear of changing will lead us in different directions with our decision making.
1. During fermentation both primary and secondary (MLF) I have no issue with the S shaped air locks. Once the wine has off gassed substantially I always use solid bungs, especially in barrels.
2 and 11. I also don't rack very often during bulk and I have been filtering my reds with a 5 um for the same reason as you, a clearer wine. You do introduce O2 while filtering but I just run argon through a sparging stone prior to bottling. Sometimes I take DO readings and sometimes not. Whites I filter with a 1 um.
3. This one is borderline for me, I recently took a 4.2 pH Viognier down to a 3.57 pre fermentation and it's pretty good and ready to bottle. But taking it down more then .4 kind of scares me.
4. I've not played much with cold soak or EM so I can't comment on that. I do however try to maintain 75-85 must temps for reds and 50-60 on whites.
5. I do as soft a punch down as I can for the tannin reason and feel 3 times a day is adequate.
6. No comment and the CD is not perfect. I just remove the visible stems as I punch down.
7. As much as I can find no reason not to I still do a post fermentation MLF. The carboys are filled to within a half inch and I let them sit 3 months to complete. I won't do the first test for 2 months. It then gets sulfited and waits it's turn in glass or goes in a barrel.
8. Same as you with regard to finishing in primary. I'm a big fan of multiple yeasts whether non H2S or not and will more than likely never change this. Just call me stubborn!
9. Never had much of a problem with this although I can't say any of my additives ever get that old except maybe yeast.

My add to the list is waiting for the wine to become somewhat finished prior to blending and almost always provide some type of blending. My thought is blending adds to the complexity and if blending wines that have just finished secondary or close to it you just don't know what qualities they will bring in 10-12 months.

 

[Ajmassa]

@Ajmassa all very good points. The main issue I always think about is what kind of wine are we trying to make, I imagine the answer is different for many of us. Do we match the wine making techniques to the fruit we have and the desired wine style? Here's another podcast for you, the whole podcast is good, but Pax Mahle starts at the 22 minute mark and discusses his thoughts on the wine style he likes and how he achieves it, this doesn't mean this is right for everyone, but it does show how different things can be. He's picking earlier than most, fermentation with stems included, whole cluster, sometimes a partial crush on all or part of the fruit, sometimes uses carbonic maceration which he also explains. He did receive a 100 points on one of his Syrah's, again it's not for everyone, but many very good points are discussed.

Geoff Kruth interviews Jason Haas of Tablas Creek and Pax Mahle of Pax Mahle Wines on working with Rhône grape varieties in California.
http://traffic.libsyn.com/guildsomm/Rhone_Grapes_in_California.mp3?dest-id=52314

“Everyone is an amateur.”
-Max Pahle on established & respected French Rhône winemakers.

^^Loved this take.

And the context wasn’t a burn. Essentially—the American winemakers striving to make the correct calls in their French grapes grown here is actually no different than what the established Frenchies are dealing with over there. Always learning, adapting to conditions and applying winemaking logic in hopes of making the right calls with everchanging harvests.

Thanks for sharing @stickman. I enjoyed it.
And by the way- he poked fun at the Cali ‘BRW style’ somewhat (Big Red Wine- where a varietal’s unique characteristics can be overshadowed by the...’bigness’), but as a home winemaker with limited means, I’m perfectly content making a quality BRW!!!


And here’s the link to the podcast I referenced yesterday about whole cluster & whole berry fermentation. Also discusses carbonic maceration, natural fermentations, and acidulated water additions to knock down high Brix°.
(If using a phone it’s also in the itunes podcast app too—plays in the background & no need leave the screen on the website.)
https://www.insidewinemaking.com/032

 

[Chuck E]

A few months ago I watched the "Wine Revealed" series. There was one episode, where the wine maker talked about everyone in California trying to make wines that would score high on Parker's scale because they would sell better. I agree that this is part of what yields Cali BRW styles.

It's ALL about the choices we make as craftsman...

 

[NorCal]

I’m in search of big, but big because I got the most out of the grapes.

I’ve found I can dump Petit Verdot or even better Petite Sirah in any wine and make it big. Not always better, just darker, bolder, big tannin, but I found that these grapes are like spices and that if used in excess, will dominate the wine. However, used in moderation can add the look, feel and taste of a wine that has better extraction and complements the wine, expanding the taste on the back-end vs. changing the wine in a monolithic fashion.

I feel the closest I’ve been able to get to this goal is in my current barrel, where I deployed a number of strategies to make the best wine I could. I’ve never had a wine taste as good as it does, as young as it is (5 months). I’ve learned though that these things change and good early doesn’t always translate to good finished, so I’m keeping an eye on it.

 

[cmason1957]

I’m in search of big, but big because I got the most out of the grapes.

I’ve found I can dump Petit Verdot or even better Petite Sirah in any wine and make it big. Not always better, just darker, bolder, big tannin, but I found that these grapes are like spices and that if used in excess, will dominate the wine. However, used in moderation can add the look, feel and taste of a wine that has better extraction and complements the wine, expanding the taste on the back-end vs. changing the wine in a monolithic fashion.

I feel the closest I’ve been able to get to this goal is in my current barrel, where I deployed a number of strategies to make the best wine I could. I’ve never had a wine taste as good as it does, as young as it is (5 months). I’ve learned though that these things change and good early doesn’t always translate to good finished, so I’m keeping an eye on it.

I think, if it were me, I would be out there with a straw checking it every single day or at least once a week. Just to see if it changed any and then crying when it was all gone.

 

[mainshipfred]

I’m in search of big, but big because I got the most out of the grapes.

I’ve found I can dump Petit Verdot or even better Petite Sirah in any wine and make it big. Not always better, just darker, bolder, big tannin, but I found that these grapes are like spices and that if used in excess, will dominate the wine. However, used in moderation can add the look, feel and taste of a wine that has better extraction and complements the wine, expanding the taste on the back-end vs. changing the wine in a monolithic fashion.

I feel the closest I’ve been able to get to this goal is in my current barrel, where I deployed a number of strategies to make the best wine I could. I’ve never had a wine taste as good as it does, as young as it is (5 months). I’ve learned though that these things change and good early doesn’t always translate to good finished, so I’m keeping an eye on it.

I couldn't agree more with your good early/good late comment. But it can be good early and late, just different. Which is the reason for my earlier comment about waiting for a more finished wine to blend.

 

[rødvinselsker]

Just starting this journey, just began my second kit without skins; Eclipse Merlot kit with skins starts later today. I consider these kits to be baby steps to understanding this process. My ultimate goal is to retire next year and eventually turn this into a business, though that will involve a decent amount of capital and a consulting wine maker. That said, the base of knowledge in this forum is fantastic, and has probably led to as many questions as answers.

My goal is to create a process flowchart and use spreadsheets to track condition of the grapes and what I'm doing. Process before creativity. Getting ready to order buckets of frozen must for my fourth go: Merlot and Cab sauv from Livermore. To get the most out of them, and aside from yeast selections, one primary question was fermentation time and temp. I found this article that sheds a bit of light on my questions, https://winesvinesanalytics.com/col...le/60528/Winemakers-Heated-About-Fermentation (I actually read the cached version since the article wouldn't load).

Thanks and look forward to continuing to read your comments and interact with everyone!

 

[Rocky]

I don't know, Guys. I have read through this thread and I believe I understand what you are trying to do. However I, for one, refuse to compromise my wine just to make it taste as bad as commercial wine.

 

[Mead Maker]

I totally agree with Rocky.

My homebrew is better than anything I can buy. And my friends all agree — they have pretty much given up on commercial wines.

And with hundreds of gallons just sitting around in my wine room I’m happy to give them away just to make room for whatever fruits 2020 and my friends will bless me with.

BTW, I‘ve never used a wine kit. Seems too much like a high school chemistry class.

 

[NorCal]

My commercial bar is set above the grocery store wine. Most of the volume moved in the grocery store is back sweetened, mega purple junk wine.

My sights are set at comparing my wine against those seeking wine spectator, wine enthusiasts, Parker scores. A good wine is like good art, hard to describe but you know it when you see/taste it.

 

[Rocky]

My commercial bar is set above the grocery store wine. Most of the volume moved in the grocery store is back sweetened, mega purple junk wine.

My sights are set at comparing my wine against those seeking wine spectator, wine enthusiasts, Parker scores. A good wine is like good art, hard to describe but you know it when you see/taste it.

I want everyone on this forum to understand that I completely agree with NorCal and what he is trying to do. I truly believe it is a commendable endeavor and I also believe he will have spectacular results. An analogy, that I have used before relating to Classic Cars, it is the difference between winning a ribbon at Pebble Beach with a 100 point Packard and a local car show with a good looking daily driver.

 

[mainshipfred]

My commercial bar is set above the grocery store wine. Most of the volume moved in the grocery store is back sweetened, mega purple junk wine.

My sights are set at comparing my wine against those seeking wine spectator, wine enthusiasts, Parker scores. A good wine is like good art, hard to describe but you know it when you see/taste it.

I can't buy that all commercial wines are bad or every wine one makes is better than any commercial wine. I think we all make good and not so good wines and on occasion something we think is spectacular. But like @NorCal and others I'm not satisfied with this and strive to get as many as possible to the spectacular level.

 

[Ajmassa]

I can't buy that all commercial wines are bad or every wine one makes is better than any commercial wine. I think we all make good and not so good wines and on occasion something we think is spectacular. But like @NorCal and others I'm not satisfied with this and strive to get as many as possible to the spectacular level.

Well said. The term “Commercial wine” definitely has quite a wide range. And “quality” is also relative. The commercial wines in my house are $15-$20 bottles when I shop— $8-15 when she shops Always finding diamonds in the rough. But will also grab an expensive bottle on occasion. It’s not often- but when I drink a high quality wine of our style preference there’s no comparison. I’ll think to myself- “Oohh. So THIS is what wine is supposed to taste like!” Talkin a big dry red. Aged enough. High abv, high acid, high tannin, balanced.

The expensive ones are still hit or miss—but more hit. And those really good ones ya don’t need a refined palate to note the difference. Compared to most cheapos it can be like a man amongst boys. The last time I had this was a few months back with 2017 Cab from Wash St Red Mountain about $45. Forget the name tho. It began with a D. Ugh. I need to go back and check that.
All im trying to say is that for me, REGARDLESS of whether it’s achievable or not with my available fruit and means, making something comparable to this type of wine I consider high quality will always be my ultimate goal. Yes for the wine but mainly because I enjoy doing it.

 

[Mead Maker]

After reading NorCal’s comments I realized that we seem to be living in two different worlds. I talked to my wine making buddies and none of us had ever seen wine spectator or wine enthusiast magazines, although a few had heard of them. And as for Parker Scores, that drew blank stares. Had to Google it to learn about Robert Parker and the Wine Advocate.

Hounddawg, who has called himself a hillbilly winemaker, seems to live in my world except there are no hills here below sea level. I guess I’m a swamp jumper winemaker. Around here, if you shoot it you eat it, and if it’s sweet you turn it into wine.

Our scoring criteria is fairly simple: does it taste good? After sampling, do you want to eat the whole thing or drink the whole bottle?

We enter all the wine competitions, and we all strive to produce “spectacular wines.” I wonder how Robert Parker would judge what we make.

Judging is always a crap shoot. I had a very tasty wine that was dinged because it “tasted of mulberry,” a comment that indicated too much tannin. My reaction was, “but it’s mulberry wine! Of course it tastes of mulberry.” Came in second place behind a wine kit.

I’ve never used a kit, imported grapes from Chile or Australia, or even California. If it doesn’t grow here we don’t spend our money on such things.

I have a friend who is a professional “wine expert,” trained at UC Davis. When he leaves California to return to the swamp every year or so he calls ahead and requests a half-dozen bottles of wine to share. We sit around and drink my wine and eat whatever we shot, and sometimes we even talk about wine. He calls my wines “unpretentious.”

Next time he’s in town I’ll ask him for my Parker Scores.

 

[rødvinselsker]

After reading NorCal’s comments I realized that we seem to be living in two different worlds. I talked to my wine making buddies and none of us had ever seen wine spectator or wine enthusiast magazines, although a few had heard of them. And as for Parker Scores, that drew blank stares. Had to Google it to learn about Robert Parker and the Wine Advocate.

Hounddawg, who has called himself a hillbilly winemaker, seems to live in my world except there are no hills here below sea level. I guess I’m a swamp jumper winemaker. Around here, if you shoot it you eat it, and if it’s sweet you turn it into wine.

Our scoring criteria is fairly simple: does it taste good? After sampling, do you want to eat the whole thing or drink the whole bottle?

We enter all the wine competitions, and we all strive to produce “spectacular wines.” I wonder how Robert Parker would judge what we make.

Judging is always a crap shoot. I had a very tasty wine that was dinged because it “tasted of mulberry,” a comment that indicated too much tannin. My reaction was, “but it’s mulberry wine! Of course it tastes of mulberry.” Came in second place behind a wine kit.

I’ve never used a kit, imported grapes from Chile or Australia, or even California. If it doesn’t grow here we don’t spend our money on such things.

I have a friend who is a professional “wine expert,” trained at UC Davis. When he leaves California to return to the swamp every year or so he calls ahead and requests a half-dozen bottles of wine to share. We sit around and drink my wine and eat whatever we shot, and sometimes we even talk about wine. He calls my wines “unpretentious.”

Next time he’s in town I’ll ask him for my Parker Scores.

FWIW, I've had my share of Parker and James Laube highly rated pinot's and cabs that didn't sit well with me, both French and American. It's all a matter of taste, but in many cases, their reviews are just a starting point. You drink what you like, and if you like it eat the whole thing, though you may only want to drink half the bottle ;-)

 

[NorCal]

After reading NorCal’s comments I realized that we seem to be living in two different worlds. I talked to my wine making buddies and none of us had ever seen wine spectator or wine enthusiast magazines, although a few had heard of them. And as for Parker Scores, that drew blank stares. Had to Google it to learn about Robert Parker and the Wine Advocate.

Hounddawg, who has called himself a hillbilly winemaker, seems to live in my world except there are no hills here below sea level. I guess I’m a swamp jumper winemaker. Around here, if you shoot it you eat it, and if it’s sweet you turn it into wine.

Our scoring criteria is fairly simple: does it taste good? After sampling, do you want to eat the whole thing or drink the whole bottle?

We enter all the wine competitions, and we all strive to produce “spectacular wines.” I wonder how Robert Parker would judge what we make.

Judging is always a crap shoot. I had a very tasty wine that was dinged because it “tasted of mulberry,” a comment that indicated too much tannin. My reaction was, “but it’s mulberry wine! Of course it tastes of mulberry.” Came in second place behind a wine kit.

I’ve never used a kit, imported grapes from Chile or Australia, or even California. If it doesn’t grow here we don’t spend our money on such things.

I have a friend who is a professional “wine expert,” trained at UC Davis. When he leaves California to return to the swamp every year or so he calls ahead and requests a half-dozen bottles of wine to share. We sit around and drink my wine and eat whatever we shot, and sometimes we even talk about wine. He calls my wines “unpretentious.”

Next time he’s in town I’ll ask him for my Parker Scores.

Love it! Made my day.

 

[cmason1957]

I treat Points noted on a wine bottle similar to how I treat movie reviews. I know that (back in the day) if Roger Ebert said it was a movie he liked and had good acting, script, etc. Unless he said it was mostly just talking, I was probably going to like that movie. My point, find a point giving group that you agree with, most of the time, if they say it is 95 points and you have agreed with their ratings in the past, you are probably going to like that wine and every so often try one that might be out of your normal, just becasue, every so often you find out that regardless of the poor rating it got, you like it.