How Many Varieties to Start?

[willowhomestead]

We are doing a test vineyard to see which varieties grow best before planting a much larger area with the "winners". How many varieties should we start with? We narrowed down our choices but still have 8 white and 10 red varieties we really want to try. The amount of research we put in is ridiculous and now I love them all. We have spacing for about 4 or 5 of each variety. The rows will have vines of the same trellis style and spacing. Are we completely nuts? Should we just pick 3 varieties and call it a day? I am worried we will pick the wrong ones and waste 4 years of valuable growing time only to have those fail and have to start all over.

 

[ChuckD]

Are we completely nuts?

18 varieties? Maybe… but who cares.

Actually they are all managed pretty much the same. You should learn a lot about disease susceptibility and growth habits for sure. Personally I would pare that down and focus on making the best wine you can from the grapes you have. I have Marquette, Petite Pearl, Frontenac, Itasca, and Brianna. 88 vines total with room for 45 more. I’m going to wait and see what I like best before adding more.

I would do more field research… this involves visiting many local vineyards and sampling varietal wines and blends from locally grown grapes.

 

[winemaker81]

I am worried we will pick the wrong ones and waste 4 years of valuable growing time only to have those fail and have to start all over.

My perspective is that of a non-grower who pays attention to what growers say and do.

The statement I quoted is (IMO) key -- it may take years to determine if a vine is viable for not, and there's more to it than "does it bear fruit?". Planting a wide variety of varietals makes a lot of sense.

A friend is growing 10 red and 3 white varietals, with four reds being experimental groups of 15-20 vines. 4 to 5 vines of each varietal may be too few, as you may have losses and won't have enough grapes of a given varietal for sufficient testing. It may be better to plan on 8 to 10 vines of each varietal, which obviously means you need to prune your list.

I would do more field research… this involves visiting many local vineyards and sampling varietal wines and blends from locally grown grapes.

If devoting years of prep work, make sure that the grapes you grow are the ones you really want wine from.

 

[willowhomestead]

18 varieties? Maybe… but who cares.

Actually they are all managed pretty much the same. You should learn a lot about disease susceptibility and growth habits for sure. Personally I would pare that down and focus on making the best wine you can from the grapes you have. I have Marquette, Petite Pearl, Frontenac, Itasca, and Brianna. 88 vines total with room for 45 more. I’m going to wait and see what I like best before adding more.

I would do more field research… this involves visiting many local vineyards and sampling varietal wines and blends from locally grown grapes.

Yes, that is good advice. We are going on a grand vineyard tour this summer and already went to a few. And I have been testing quite a bit of wine . It's just very difficult to choose. We had similar difficulty in selecting our chicken breeds.
Best of luck with your vineyard! Please post photos.

 

[willowhomestead]

My perspective is that of a non-grower who pays attention to what growers say and do.

The statement I quoted is (IMO) key -- it may take years to determine if a vine is viable for not, and there's more to it than "does it bear fruit?". Planting a wide variety of varietals makes a lot of sense.

A friend is growing 10 red and 3 white varietals, with four reds being experimental groups of 15-20 vines. 4 to 5 vines of each varietal may be too few, as you may have losses and won't have enough grapes of a given varietal for sufficient testing. It may be better to plan on 8 to 10 vines of each varietal, which obviously means you need to prune your list.




If devoting years of prep work, make sure that the grapes you grow are the ones you really want wine from.

That is a good point. Our rows are a bit on the shorter side, 60ft. So o e tow of each would be more efficient and give us some room for error in wine making. Thank you. It is still very difficult to choose.

 

[willowhomestead]

My perspective is that of a non-grower who pays attention to what growers say and do.

The statement I quoted is (IMO) key -- it may take years to determine if a vine is viable for not, and there's more to it than "does it bear fruit?". Planting a wide variety of varietals makes a lot of sense.

A friend is growing 10 red and 3 white varietals, with four reds being experimental groups of 15-20 vines. 4 to 5 vines of each varietal may be too few, as you may have losses and won't have enough grapes of a given varietal for sufficient testing. It may be better to plan on 8 to 10 vines of each varietal, which obviously means you need to prune your list.




If devoting years of prep work, make sure that the grapes you grow are the ones you really want wine from.

"Prune" our list

 

[GSMChris]

We planted our vineyard April / May of 2022. In deciding what to plant, we worked backwards from what we wanted to make - and how much of that variety. So, for example, we wanted to make a GSM. We knew we would be heavier on the Syrah and Grenache and lighter on the Mourvèdre - probably a 40% 40% 20% target ratio. We also decided we would like to have some extra Syrah to have as a pure varietal. In talking to local growers, they said that, on a per vine basis, Grenache would produce much more than either of the other two. So we planted 112 Grenache, 63 Mourvèdre, and 161 Syrah plants. The weird numbers are due to our rows having different lengths and we didn’t see the point in leaving a row less than full!! We did also plant Carignane and Primitivo with a goal of blending the two of those.

We will have our first full harvest this year so it will be interesting to see how close reality is to our goals.

 

[winemaker81]

"Prune" our list

Pun intended ... I tend towards dry humor, which doesn't necessarily work in text.

 

[Snafflebit]

@willowhomestead Another approach, you could focus your main vineyard on 1 or 2 varieties that are sure to be good for winemaking and devote a small portion of the vineyard to experimental vines. They could always be blended in.

 

[willowhomestead]

@willowhomestead Another approach, you could focus your main vineyard on 1 or 2 varieties that are sure to be good for winemaking and devote a small portion of the vineyard to experimental vines. They could always be blended in.

But which ones?! The number of choices is maddening. We are thinking about just rolling the dice and leave it up to fate.

 

[winemaker81]

But which ones?! The number of choices is maddening. We are thinking about just rolling the dice and leave it up to fate.

Make a list of all your planned grapes, white & red in the list, then rank them in order of which wines you like best. Start at the "best" end of the list and work your way down. Focusing on what you like (regardless of color) is a more likely path to satisfaction.

From your first post, you have room for between 72 and 90 vines -- 81 is in the middle. Assuming that is correct, plant 20 each of your two favorites, and 10 each of the next four. Or plant 10 each of the top eight.

Don't over-think it. Whatever you choose is going to work.

 

[Rice_Guy]

But which ones?! The number of choices is maddening. We are thinking about just rolling the dice and leave it up to fate.

My vineyard started with two of this and two of that. It works for the purpose of learning how to grow grapes.

- As a northerner you are in a wet high humidity area. Knowing what chemicals can control fungus will be a key to making a vineyard work. I am tempted to offer that all varieties on your list can be successful with a spray program. ?but How organic do you want to be? or ?but How much baby sitting do you want to do? (for resistance I like Briana and one I call Millot {but may be miss labeled})
- ?but, What do you want to make? There are lots of styles. ex. I like Petite Pearl as a tannic red but it can also make a rose. Briana can vary a lot based on how ripe when picked, foxy vs not foxy. ? Do you have someplace to taste what others are doing? Even if it involves driving you will gain a lot being a wine judge or contest steward. Is there a state grape growers? could you join Pennsylvania grape growers? You aren’t the only one looking at new crosses.
- OK you can make gallon size batches like breeders do. Plan on just blending at some future point.
- Growing and making wine are two distinct skills. ? Do you want to be a grower or a winemaker? (breeding grapes is another skill set). In the Midwest it is easy to get crops, practically looking it seems that there is a grape surplus every year. That said good apple tannins seem more limiting. I would also say that good grape tannins are limited.
I am more of a country wine maker, so I do projects as here is juice, what do I need to add to a mulberry to make a big red wine? ,,, or to Marquette to make a California vinifera? ,,, There is so much that one can add ex get a Scott Labs tannin kit.
- The variety that gets released next year will be better than the choices this year. ? Better? might be disease resistance,, or tannin,, or less wild growth,, or growing degree days,, etc etc. After ten years of growing grapes I gave up finding the best variety, since there is no best.

As a farm kid I have to say good luck, Growing is fun.

 

[willowhomestead]

Make a list of all your planned grapes, white & red in the list, then rank them in order of which wines you like best. Start at the "best" end of the list and work your way down. Focusing on what you like (regardless of color) is a more likely path to satisfaction.

From your first post, you have room for between 72 and 90 vines -- 81 is in the middle. Assuming that is correct, plant 20 each of your two favorites, and 10 each of the next four. Or plant 10 each of the top eight.

Don't over-think it. Whatever you choose is going to work.

 

[willowhomestead]

Yes, ideally I would like one per row. We have a few that could be 4 or 5 ft spacing and some that need 8. We are getting the disease resistant varieties as much as possible. There aren't many places we could taste test a Marquette or a Leon Millot or a Traminette. Other than getting our own juice to make wine, which would take too long and might be sold out by the time we decide. Thank you for the confidence, it's almost like becoming parents all over again... so much second guessing.

 

[GSMChris]

When do you plan to plant?

 

[willowhomestead]

When do you plan to plant?

Spring 2025

 

[winemaker81]

Spring 2025

This gives you plenty of time to think thing through and make good decisions.

It also gives you time to overthink things and drive yourself insane. Offhand, I recommend going with Plan A over Plan B ....

All jokes aside, you've got plenty to time to do your research and order the vines you want. Speaking of which, do you have source(s) for the vines and a timeline when you need to order them?

 

[willowhomestead]

This gives you plenty of time to think thing through and make good decisions.

It also gives you time to overthink things and drive yourself insane. Offhand, I recommend going with Plan A over Plan B ....

All jokes aside, you've got plenty to time to do your research and order the vines you want. Speaking of which, do you have source(s) for the vines and a timeline when you need to order them?

Oh, I am beyond overthinking. We are in New England so AA Vineyards, Northeastern Vine Supply.

Their online sales for 2025 opens in a week I believe. I would rather just decide and order them. Once it's final I think we will be happy with our choices because we have to be. I posted another thread with possibilities, more were added than we started with so we didn't end up narrowing the list down .

We want to know now in case we need to add more sand or gravel to our rows. We have a ph of 7.

 

[winemaker81]

Oh, I am beyond overthinking.

I realize and I commiserate.

I start planning the next year's grape purchase while the current year's grapes are fermenting. I'll change my mind / get new ideas at least a dozen times. I'm ordering CA / Lodi grapes in September, so I may change my mind up until I actually submit the order. And my choices may be forced by what grapes are available in the year's delivery window (local group purchase places a single order of 3 to 6 tons of grapes.

You're 100% spot on -- once the order is placed, things are set.

Your list of grapes is daunting. Asking for help is key, so you're on the right track.

 

[wood1954]

Yes, ideally I would like one per row. We have a few that could be 4 or 5 ft spacing and some that need 8. We are getting the disease resistant varieties as much as possible. There aren't many places we could taste test a Marquette or a Leon Millot or a Traminette. Other than getting our own juice to make wine, which would take too long and might be sold out by the time we decide. Thank you for the confidence, it's almost like becoming parents all over again... so much second guessing.

I’ve been growing Marquette for 8 years in northern Wisconsin and it’s very versatile. You can barrel age it, carboy age it, add oak or not. Highly recommend putting it thru MLF and cold crashing it also. My wine is now very good and I recently tasted a version at a winery that was just fantastic. Good luck