I couldn’t figured it out whether if it’s fermentating

[Kivanc]

It’s the 3rd day of my cinnamon tea wine in primary fermentation. There is no activity taking place... seems like there’s no fizzling sounds, no bubbles coming from... it just formed a layer on surface. There’s tiny yeast particles that floating down and up. I have started at 1.140 sg, I made yeast starter with 18% tolerant wine yeast. I put the must next to the heater. I am stirring it twice a day.

I need your thoughts on this one whether it’s fermenting or not.

Thank you so much

 

[BigDaveK]

With those bubbles it looks like it's fermenting. An SG measurement will tell you for sure. I always measure and taste daily and those readings determine my course of action, not the number of days of the ferment.

I've had ferments that looked a boiling mass and you could hear them from the next room and I've had some that were very subtle. My vegetable musts were among the most active. Flower and herb (like mint) were more relaxed. Fruits are somewhere in between. I'm guessing it has something to do with the amount of organic matter, amino acids, starch, the strain of yeast, and who knows what else. My gut feeling is that cinnamon would be more relaxed.

 

[VinesnBines]

Take your SG, Although your yeast is tolerant to 18%, I think your SG is too high. You are going to have to drop it closer to 1.090 to 1.100. I had the same problem with a batch of jalapeno. Once I watered it down to 1.090, the yeast (EC1118) took off.

 

[Kivanc]

Take your SG, Although your yeast is tolerant to 18%, I think your SG is too high. You are going to have to drop it closer to 1.090 to 1.100. I had the same problem with a batch of jalapeno. Once I watered it down to 1.090, the yeast (EC1118) took off.

If I add water does it mean to lower down the potential alcohol?

 

[BernardSmith]

If I add water does it mean to lower down the potential alcohol?

Yes... You can create what is called "osmotic shock" if the sugar concentration is too high. Not certain, but when the concentration of sugar is too high, the transportation of material across the yeasts' cell walls moves from inside the cells to the outside and not from the outside in, and so the yeast are damaged and no fermentation takes place.

 

[Kivanc]

Take your SG, Although your yeast is tolerant to 18%, I think your SG is too high. You are going to have to drop it closer to 1.090 to 1.100. I had the same problem with a batch of jalapeno. Once I watered it down to 1.090, the yeast (EC1118) took off.

I am sorry VinesnBines but I also appreciate your response.Thank you...
I don’t want to lower the potential alcohol to cause osmotic shock so I sprinkled over a brand new 18% tolerant wine yeast. I tried it while racking into secondary and I found the strong aromatic taste of cinnamon gave the must a beautiful consistency. I read that in order to keep the aroma in wine is to stir up to release the CO2 at warmer temperature before leading it to bottles. I’d like to hear your recommendations on this (I’ve used cinnamon sticks).

 

[Rice_Guy]

Yeast farming; if we create a high sugar must we are moving into the direction of creating a preservative. Example jelly or the shelf stable concentrate found in wine kits or maple syrup. ALL families of microbes have osmotic pressure ranges where they stop growing. The bad news is that if we run high enough that the yeast family are struggling the only thing left that will grow is the molds.

If I add water does it mean to lower down the potential alcohol?

Normally to farm a high alcohol we step feed. That is start at 1.090 or if pushing it 1.100. As we ferment the yeast adapt to the low level stress and we add additional sugar and yeast nutrient. Step feeding should let you get 1118 up to 19 or 20% ABV, and if I was looking at a grain alcohol yeast might push that to 22 to 24% ABV.

High osmotic pressure is toxic! , , , , High alcohol creates high osmotic pressure. ,, High sugar creates high osmotic pressure! and if we look at traditional foods salting and drying which prevent microbial growth work because high osmotic pressure.

 

[Kivanc]

“Yeast farming; if we create a high sugar must we are moving into the direction of creating a preservative.” Does this high sugared must capable of preserving its aromatic flavor?

 

[BigDaveK]

“Yeast farming; if we create a high sugar must we are moving into the direction of creating a preservative.” Does this high sugared must capable of preserving its aromatic flavor?

I think it gets a bit more complicated than that. Yeast strain and fermentation temperature play a major role.

 

[Rice_Guy]

“Is this high sugared must capable of preserving its aromatic flavor?

Wow, good question,,
- at this point my feeling is that loss of aromatics is mainly that volatile sulfur compounds are detectable at 1ppt and even 0.2ppt and mask the normal fruity aromatics which are detectable at ppm levels. Gut feel in the vinters is that having excellent yeast nutrition is the biggest correlation to retaining aroma. Bitter as from mercaptans seems to help mask fruity aromatics but this may be the ppt threshold of VSC.
- high sugar requires higher YAN which is directly related to yeast stress and reductive flavor>>> therefore high sugar increases the risk of reductive sulfur off notes.
- High solids is related to higher flavor intensity, ,,, my style is high lb of fruit per gallon
- It is interesting that sweet/ backsweetening seems to help develop ripe aromas and lower raw/ acidic aromas
- complex flavors are more desirable, it is useful to have below threshold levels of oxidation or VA . Flavors come in waves as sweet > acids > tannins like 10 seconds > 30 seconds > 90 seconds. Balancing the types of flavors to give longevity helps.
- Label/ expectation, I have put cyser with cinnamon in one contest with “nice cinnamon note” and in state fair without cinnamon on the label being told “spicy cinnamon off flavor”
- low temp helps keep aromatics, related to that more fermentation should push more aromatics off
- I have vendors so commercial folks cheat adding WONF (with other natural flavors) low levels as 1ml/ 20 liters help
- percentage alcohol will influence the threshold detection of flavor compounds, most of what I have read talks about chemicals like ethyl acetate which can be a positive below 20ppm

 

[Kivanc]

“low temp helps keep aromatics, related to that more fermentation should push more aromatics off”
This leads me to another question: I sense more aromatics while in primary. So the more aromatic flavors come out during the fermentation process, means more aromatics leave out of the must?

 

[Rice_Guy]

“low temp helps keep aromatics, related to that more fermentation should push more aromatics off”
This leads me to another question: I sense more aromatics while in primary. So the more aromatic flavors come out during the fermentation process, means more aromatics leave out of the must?

the articles state aromatics will come off/ boil off with higher temperature but it is logical flushing a gas to create higher alcohol has some percentage of effect.

 

[Raptor99]

This leads me to another question: I sense more aromatics while in primary. So the more aromatic flavors come out during the fermentation process, means more aromatics leave out of the must?

As my mom used to say re: storing herbs: "If you can smell it, you are losing flavor." The aromatics that you smell are compounds that are no longer in the wine.

 

[hounddawg]

I am sorry VinesnBines but I also appreciate your response.Thank you...
I don’t want to lower the potential alcohol to cause osmotic shock so I sprinkled over a brand new 18% tolerant wine yeast. I tried it while racking into secondary and I found the strong aromatic taste of cinnamon gave the must a beautiful consistency. I read that in order to keep the aroma in wine is to stir up to release the CO2 at warmer temperature before leading it to bottles. I’d like to hear your recommendations on this (I’ve used cinnamon sticks).

go to K1V-1116 for more aroma and flavor,
Dawg

 

[BigDaveK]

This leads me to another question: I sense more aromatics while in primary. So the more aromatic flavors come out during the fermentation process, means more aromatics leave out of the must?

You would not believe how complicated this is!
Been reading....most of the volatile compounds for aroma actually combine with sugars to form glycosides. And everybody wants a hand in changing them. They're altered in the must, during fermentation, from the yeast metabolism, and also during aging. And of course acid, temperature, and yeast strain are all important.

Personal note from last week - I did my first low temperature wine, raspberry, ambient temp was 58F. Didn't smell anything a foot away from the primary. Three inches away it was like getting hit with a raspberry boot!! Yes, and knock your socks off flavor! I'm definitely planning more low temp fermentations.

As my mom used to say re: storing herbs: "If you can smell it, you are losing flavor." The aromatics that you smell are compounds that are no longer in the wine.

Mom's are smart.

 

[Kivanc]

go to K1V-1116 for more aroma and flavor,
Dawg

My friend, I haven’t tried ordering something from oversea companies yet but I noted it already (thanks ). I used SN9 Mangrove Jack’s 18% tolerant champagne yeast this time.

 

[Terryfirma]

Good complex answers to this.
My simple thoughts:
Too high sugar inhibits fermentation ( as others explained so well!)
Cinnamon has a preservative effect and also and may inhibit the yeast.
(But the slower action might help retain the aromatic factor?)
I often stay away from the 18% yeasts because of flavor losses I’ve had in the past.
Keep us posted. Good luck.

 

[Kivanc]

After 4 weeks it dropped from 1.060 to 1.040. And today I am happy to share out my 13,12% alcohol cinnamon tea wine... I could feel the sweet crispy full taste of cinnamon which has a nice consistency with alcohol. It’s turned out to be a champagne.

Thank you all for such recommendations and replies...